Why did WiTE2 use MaxCeling?

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DeletedUser44
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu May 27, 2021 4:14 pm

Why did WiTE2 use MaxCeling?

Post by DeletedUser44 »

Why did WiTE2 use "Max Ceiling" instead of "Effective Ceiling" for its weapon systems?

Note - "Ceiling" used in this context relates to the (vertical) range attributed to anti-aircraft weapon systems when firing at aircraft.

Hopefully, most people understand the difference and know that "Max Ceiling" is going to be significantly greater than "Effective Ceiling" in practically every weapon system. In this case, as much as 2-4 times as much.

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To illustrate, I am just going to grab one at random, 20mm Flak 38.
It is at the top of my picture so it should be easy to identify.

For the 20mm Flak 38, WiTE2 has the MaxCeiling of 9100 ft.
... in either semi-automatic or automatic mode. The effective vertical range was 2,200 metres.

Converting to feet puts it at an effective vertical range of 7218 ft. (9100 vs 7218) Not too far off, right? It gets worse, much worse, for other weapons systems. Trust me.

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There is noway to convert, algorithmically, "MaxCeiling" to "Effective Ceiling" as it is completely unique to each weapon system and dependent on system ammo, system sights, system bore length...

The end result is that you have a greatly inflated firing range capacity for your anti-aircraft weapon systems.

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If you try to counter and say - "oh, we don't really use 'MaxCeiling'. we use 'Rng' for that.", you are going to make me laugh, because (according to the WiTW game editor manual) the 'Rng' values you have listed are in YARDs, not FEET. So you have to multiply x3 to convert to feet.

When doing that, you will have some weapon systems that now have an even greater 'Rng' than their 'MaxCeiling' values - which makes the situation even worse!

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I am aware that you probably based all of your FLAK mechanics on what you presumed to be good data. However, if was based on the 'MaxCeiling' data currently in game - it was not good data and needs to be seriously reviewed.

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panzer51
Posts: 215
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:27 am

RE: Why did WiTE2 use MaxCeling?

Post by panzer51 »



I asked that question before, never got an answer

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5100478

The effective ceiling is determined by optics, so there is an added uncertainty as to what optics each unit uses. The German Linealvisier21 was the most common optics used on 20mm AA guns which would give an effective ceiling of ~5,400 feet. Also, most optics have a blind spot at very low altitudes, for Linealvisier21 it was at 900 feet, so essentially, the range would have to be 900-5,400 feet for 20mm AA guns.

37mm used an older version of Flakvisier which had an effective ceiling of ~6,600 feet. The new and improved sights were not adopted until 1943-44 which improved the effective ceiling to ~15,750 feet.

I will let Matrix to answer this question, but to be honest we don't even know how Flak works in the first place.
Denniss
Posts: 8078
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 10:00 am
Location: Germany, Hannover (region)

RE: Why did WiTE2 use MaxCeling?

Post by Denniss »

Range is for ground fire vs other land weapons
AA guns should actually use effective ceiling for AA fire, I believe this is most often/always the time/alt for the self-destructive fuse to activate.
WitE dev team - (aircraft data)
WitE 1.08+ dev team (data/scenario maintainer)
WitW dev team (aircraft data, partial data/scenario maintainer)
WitE2 dev team (aircraft data)
panzer51
Posts: 215
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:27 am

RE: Why did WiTE2 use MaxCeling?

Post by panzer51 »

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Range is for ground fire vs other land weapons
AA guns should actually use effective ceiling for AA fire, I believe this is most often/always the time/alt for the self-destructive fuse to activate.

And I told you that this will be maximum ceiling not effective.
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