Why there are no more players?

WarPlan Pacific is an operational level wargame which covers all the nations at war in the Pacific theatre from December 1941 to 1945 on a massive game scale.

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Nikel
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Why there are no more players?

Post by Nikel »

Just wondering. Is WPP a failure?

With all the activity in WitP-AE forum so many years after release, full of mods, AARs, quarrels between antagonic forum members [:D], and now even new patches by the original team members!?



WPP was supposed to be the solution to the pacific theatre lovers that just cannot handle WitP-AE complexities.

So what happened: not historical, not realistic, too simple,...?


I would like to know the opinion of other forum members.
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Matto
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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by Matto »

I bought it last Sunday, tried some small scenarios and started full campaign yesterday ... my first impression is really positive. No to complex like WitP, but still enough to have good feeling from detailed play ... and it is really quicker, I like it [8D]
Excuse my English ... I hope is better then Your Czech ... :o)
My MatrixGames: WitP, WitP AE, WPO, JTCS, P&S, CoGEE, ATG, GoA, B.Academy, C-GW, OoB all DLCs, all SC, FoG2/E, most AGEOD games ...

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Nikel
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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by Nikel »

Good to know Matto. I remember you from Ageod forum.

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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by AlvaroSousa »

We haven't hit Steam yet. That will be in early 2022. There will be a new influx of players.
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generalfdog
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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by generalfdog »

Nikel Not sure why you say that I don't have any issues finding opponents and it is a great game. If you need an opponent I would gladly play you
Remington700
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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by Remington700 »

ORIGINAL: Nikel

Just wondering. Is WPP a failure?

For me WPP is a major success! Although the game may not be for everyone. And I play differently than the majority, using hotseat without a human opponent. So please know I do not speak for the group.

I think the game does hit the mark between what I would call "complex/time consuming" and "blow and go". I have spent hours playing Ageod releases and TOAW. I consider all to be much the same in complexity, while being different at the same time. It depends upon how deep you get into it. There are things I miss from those games such as the treatment of leaders. And the age old argument of should a river be in the middle of a hex or on the border.

It has been very hard to find the middle ground between WitP-AE and less detailed Pacific Theater of Operations games. WPP hits the middle very well and as such, works well with my work/family schedule. I know we lost some dedicated PTO players early after the release due to the ease of invading India and Australia. It just does not sit well with those that want historical relevance, including myself. I believe this has been adjusted, however I cannot say for sure as I have house ruled away from it since the start.

The War Plan community seems to be mostly focused in the ETO which may be driven more by interest in history than in just game play. However, I think in general, any PTO games or simulations will have less dynamic outcomes than what happens on the other side of the world. Unless player skill level is uneven, generally you start with Japanese dominance, have a period of equality and then Allied dominance. Dominance swings quickly with a few key Naval battles. Compared to the ETO where dominance is gained slower, but more steadily though large scale land combat.

For me the success in WPP lies in the little skirmishes that set up the big naval confrontations. Once the invasion of West India is taken out of the equation, as the allies you hold on by doing little things like night supply runs to key bases. And use air power to offset the naval imbalance. All to just survive. Playing Japan, you have to hit hard and fast, capturing all that you can before the momentum swings. And do everything possible to cut supply to India to keep the fight in Burma. However overextension can be a disaster so you have to know when to dig in. There is a lot of thought that can go into this game. And while the path to an Allied victory may differ from history, it does seem reasonable to me. I follow either the MacArthur or Nimitz plan based on the enemies defense. A Japanese win by points does reasonably replicate a conditional peace; although the historical likelihood is still a great debate.

So to finally answer your question, I think more are playing WPP than who post on the forum - which is the norm for most successful games. Since WPP has not yet been released to Steam, sales must still be strong. And if this is not the case, I cannot understand why. WWP is an outstanding game in my opinion.
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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by ncc1701e »

The game engine is the same than WPE. As such, there are less posting about potential bugs. I don't think it mean less players.

Regarding China, I am still puzzled by the supply situation in the south. Did not find out yet where does it come from.

Regarding Australia, with the latest patch, its invasion is now extremely difficult for Japan.

Regarding India, defending Ceylon is still problematic when all the Japanese navy is there to do naval blockades. As I said before, the Royal Navy lacks some historical ships to protect Ceylon against an invasion.
I have send a complete list of OOB changes for the Royal Navy in Pacific to Alvaro for consideration.

I also find that the Royal Air Force is not enough represented in Ceylon or India. For me, the Royal Air Force should be represented in Singapore at turn one, understrengthed but represented. I have a perfect location for it so that it could be overrunned turn one by the Japanese army. The goal is to find this air unit back in India quickly so that an invasion of Ceylon can be harder.

As an enhancement, I think that the scale of the game must be changed for CA groups. There are not enough CA group represented on the map. I would propose that a CA group is two heavy cruisers instead of four.

Other than that, the game is fun especially with the nice addition of invisible fleets.
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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by Nikel »

ORIGINAL: generalfdog

Nikel Not sure why you say that I don't have any issues finding opponents and it is a great game. If you need an opponent I would gladly play you

Thanks generalfdog, you are very kind.

But was not referring to that.

It was more the lack of forum activity as a measure of the game failure or not.

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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by Nikel »

ORIGINAL: Remington700

For me WPP is a major success! Although the game may not be for everyone. And I play differently than the majority, using hotseat without a human opponent. So please know I do not speak for the group.

I think the game does hit the mark between what I would call "complex/time consuming" and "blow and go". I have spent hours playing Ageod releases and TOAW. I consider all to be much the same in complexity, while being different at the same time. It depends upon how deep you get into it. There are things I miss from those games such as the treatment of leaders. And the age old argument of should a river be in the middle of a hex or on the border.

It has been very hard to find the middle ground between WitP-AE and less detailed Pacific Theater of Operations games. WPP hits the middle very well and as such, works well with my work/family schedule. I know we lost some dedicated PTO players early after the release due to the ease of invading India and Australia. It just does not sit well with those that want historical relevance, including myself. I believe this has been adjusted, however I cannot say for sure as I have house ruled away from it since the start.

The War Plan community seems to be mostly focused in the ETO which may be driven more by interest in history than in just game play. However, I think in general, any PTO games or simulations will have less dynamic outcomes than what happens on the other side of the world. Unless player skill level is uneven, generally you start with Japanese dominance, have a period of equality and then Allied dominance. Dominance swings quickly with a few key Naval battles. Compared to the ETO where dominance is gained slower, but more steadily though large scale land combat.

For me the success in WPP lies in the little skirmishes that set up the big naval confrontations. Once the invasion of West India is taken out of the equation, as the allies you hold on by doing little things like night supply runs to key bases. And use air power to offset the naval imbalance. All to just survive. Playing Japan, you have to hit hard and fast, capturing all that you can before the momentum swings. And do everything possible to cut supply to India to keep the fight in Burma. However overextension can be a disaster so you have to know when to dig in. There is a lot of thought that can go into this game. And while the path to an Allied victory may differ from history, it does seem reasonable to me. I follow either the MacArthur or Nimitz plan based on the enemies defense. A Japanese win by points does reasonably replicate a conditional peace; although the historical likelihood is still a great debate.

So to finally answer your question, I think more are playing WPP than who post on the forum - which is the norm for most successful games. Since WPP has not yet been released to Steam, sales must still be strong. And if this is not the case, I cannot understand why. WWP is an outstanding game in my opinion.



Thanks for your detailed answer.


The leaders is one of the factors, you will see Nimitz and Yamamoto in the splash screen, but never more in the game.

So historic simulation is THE FACTOR, in my opinion. Not only the internal game mechanics have to work and be as bug-free as possible, there is something more, just my feelings.


The middle place should be the most common, so why so much activity in WitP-AE, a monster game, after so many years? Because the game is a success, and I doubt it is becase the PTO gamers are specially grognards.

The same we can say with Ageod, the most successful were the ACW games, and so is reflected in the forum activity. I do not think good games generate less forum activity because the players are playing. When you enjoy a game, you post in the forum bugs to improve it, post historical comments or doubts and search for other players, even create AARs (a badly remunerated job [;)] ). And this in turn generates even more.




Nikel
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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by Nikel »

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

The game engine is the same than WPE. As such, there are less posting about potential bugs. I don't think it mean less players.

Regarding China, I am still puzzled by the supply situation in the south. Did not find out yet where does it come from.

Regarding Australia, with the latest patch, its invasion is now extremely difficult for Japan.

Regarding India, defending Ceylon is still problematic when all the Japanese navy is there to do naval blockades. As I said before, the Royal Navy lacks some historical ships to protect Ceylon against an invasion.
I have send a complete list of OOB changes for the Royal Navy in Pacific to Alvaro for consideration.

I also find that the Royal Air Force is not enough represented in Ceylon or India. For me, the Royal Air Force should be represented in Singapore at turn one, understrengthed but represented. I have a perfect location for it so that it could be overrunned turn one by the Japanese army. The goal is to find this air unit back in India quickly so that an invasion of Ceylon can be harder.

As an enhancement, I think that the scale of the game must be changed for CA groups. There are not enough CA group represented on the map. I would propose that a CA group is two heavy cruisers instead of four.

Other than that, the game is fun especially with the nice addition of invisible fleets.


Probably you are right with the engine and the bugs posting.


And then you comment the OOB, which is another historic simulation factor that is required for a wargame success.

And the scale, I'd say this is number three?
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Meteor2
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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by Meteor2 »

Interessting points. I am finding the absense of more AAR a little bit disapointing, too and came to a similar conclusion (hopefully wrong).
I played WitP-AE year ago and never finished a complete game, but nevertheless it was absolutely bringing me into „involvement“ into the time frame.
When I saw subs approaching my convoy and firing torps (the small battle „film“), I was really involved.
So, despite the game being a monster, the accurate OOB and ships and units on the map, gave me the impression, that this is the ultimate game, worth spending my time.
WPP is still in the phase of adjustments and corrections. The OOB has to be correct and basic historical facts have to be incorporated.
The balance argument is valid for a game (WitP victories possible for both sides), but the historical approach is key for me. And little details, that makes the involvement.
WPP is absolutely a good game, but now I am waiting, how things settle with new patches.
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*Lava*
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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by *Lava* »

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
Regarding China, I am still puzzled by the supply situation in the south. Did not find out yet where does it come from.

This is a bit of a game killer for me.

This large dead zone appears, which neither side can pass and the Japanese begin attacking from the North.

If this is intended, then hexes should have "0" supply, not dark shading with nothing in it.

This appears independent of the weather, though I am not sure it is independent of the season.
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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by AlvaroSousa »

The patch has updated the area with an extra port for the Allies. Consider this Pacific is 4x the size of Europe so each hex is 4 Europe hexes. There were tons of jungle, hills, and a lack of infrastructure.

It should be a see saw where the Japanese player pushes to a point then has to start falling back due to the weight of the Commonwealth forces. But not putting enough troops there means being overrun.
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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by *Lava* »

No, mate.

This problem happens in Southern China.
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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by AlvaroSousa »

So what is the problem in the south?
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GiveWarAchance
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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by GiveWarAchance »

I just bought this game. I really like the Pacific war including China so this game is perfect.
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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by ncc1701e »

ORIGINAL: Nikel

Probably you are right with the engine and the bugs posting.

And then you comment the OOB, which is another historic simulation factor that is required for a wargame success.

And the scale, I'd say this is number three?

Point number 4 for a Pacific game is also carrier operations.[;)]
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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by ncc1701e »

ORIGINAL: Meteor2

WPP is absolutely a good game, but now I am waiting, how things settle with new patches.

What are you waiting for? New features?
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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by ncc1701e »

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

So what is the problem in the south?

A black hole in supply. How? I don't have the answer. Where? Here:

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RE: Why there are no more players?

Post by *Lava* »

Yep, that is the area.

I don't have any saves to illustrate it, but it becomes a pit of darkness, which neither side can move into.
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