Uber troops part 24

[carll11]

I just had to attack at 1000-1 to overrun a unit made up of 7 howitzers, 6 trucks 5 tractors and 4 jeeps....


This has been repeated time after time, super human defense. I have read as we all have I am sure and are familiar with the nature of WaR , US units delaying, but lordy.

I attacked first at 500-1, good units 2 directions, they 'held' with 2 howitzers and 1 truck left. In fact I went back and ran the attack 4 times. I was only 'successful' after adding altogether, a full strng rested inf regt., a Lehr Pzr gr. regt, the lehr Pzr Jgr. bn, and 2nd pzr KG Gutmann....then at 1000-1 it was destroyed...I mean seriously?


And if the US gets a arm. bn in a town? Forget it even if surrounded, you'll need .....3 inf regts, an arm. unit
( at least one Pzr regt.), 3-4 turns....


Also, I have made concentric attacks wherein adding units lowers my odds, even from different directions, not all ganged up from one hex....

Almost at the point where in I am ready to stop and wait for the patch to fix this.

[gwgardner]

Just wondering, have you looked at the detailed combat report to see what factors caused the 1) initial odds, 2) unexpected result?

[carll11]

no I havnt....

[Jagger2002]

And if the US gets a arm. bn in a town? Forget it even if surrounded, you'll need .....3 inf regts, an arm. unit
( at least one Pzr regt.), 3-4 turns...

That is an interesting situation. I wonder what is the best way to solve that tactical problem? Surround and bypass would be my first thought. Probing attacks to reduce tank fuel? Do tanks use up fuel while defending...I would think so. Once fuel is gone, they are highly vulnerable. Infantry attacks? Both sides have reduced firepower but I suspect the attacking infantry better have cover or they are going to get hurt. Have to think about it.

[pedro0930]

The odds predictor doesn't take various things into account such as start up penalty and combat length. Also if you outnumber the enemy very heavily a lot of units will not be able to attack effectively because a unit can only be attacked a certain number of times per combat turn (for most units, 3 times) before any subsequent attacks start getting penalty. So it is possible adding weak unit that can't attack effectively will take up the opportunity for effective unit to attack.

[carll11]

ORIGINAL: Jagger2002

And if the US gets a arm. bn in a town? Forget it even if surrounded, you'll need .....3 inf regts, an arm. unit
( at least one Pzr regt.), 3-4 turns...

That is an interesting situation. I wonder what is the best way to solve that tactical problem? Surround and bypass would be my first thought. Probing attacks to reduce tank fuel? Do tanks use up fuel while defending...I would think so. Once fuel is gone, they are highly vulnerable. Infantry attacks? Both sides have reduced firepower but I suspect the attacking infantry better have cover or they are going to get hurt. Have to think about it.

The arm unit in town isnt using any fuel, its just sitting, and its 'supply' takes 3-4 batterings before it gets to zero.

Re; bypass, I try when I can, but then that means your inf alone have to do it and as I said , thats still a very tall order, I had a arm. unit surrounded in open terrain, by good inf units and it took me 6 turns and hecka causalities to eliminate it.

[carll11]

ORIGINAL: pedro0930

The odds predictor doesn't take various things into account such as start up penalty and combat length. Also if you outnumber the enemy very heavily a lot of units will not be able to attack effectively because a unit can only be attack a certain number of times per combat turn (for most units, 3 times) before any subsequent attacks start getting penalty. So it is possible adding weak unit that can't attack effectively will take up the opportunity for effective unit to attack.

Yes, I was thinking of those issues,I never attack with stacked units except 1 inf and 1 arm. but when you're attacking concentrically with 1 unit per hex, the defender cannot be strong everywhere and at 500-1?

[Vic]

Pedro above is right. If big odds try to only attack with your best troops as not all the firepower can be brought to bear otherwise.

However i am re examining the maxattacked rule to see if i can make some improvements

Best
Vic

[Khanti]

Some of the odds are ridiculous by itself. Unit can have 600 def points and be killed by 60 points of attacker. Mathematically correct. But I'd like to see RETREAT or PINNED here in that circumstances.
This one was couterbattery fire, so they did not see my guns (defender is hidden).
I'm not complaining Vic, but I hate those situations no matter my unit dies or kills.
[;)]

[SwampYankee68]

ORIGINAL: Vic

Pedro above is right. If big odds try to only attack with your best troops as not all the firepower can be brought to bear otherwise.

However i am re examining the maxattacked rule to see if i can make some improvements

Best
Vic

Not to be a suck-up, but the fact that you respond, and do follow up, is one of the reasons yours are my favorite series of wargames. Still enjoying Barbarossa, starting to dip into Ardennes. Already looking forward to rumors of your next project, too.

[Khanti]

Not so uber 155 Howitzer, but still can kill with odds like 17:104. Typical unfortunately.



And how it should have ended ([;)])

[Jagger2002]

Hehe...read some Zuelkhe. I wouldn't be surprised if a 50mm mortar or one single bypassed man with a grenade knocks out a Koenig Tiger because the tank commander just happened to open up his hatch at the wrong time. Or even if no one is shooting at a Tiger, it moves a little too close to a ditch, slides off and ends upside down. And then there is the artillery round that doesn't hit the tank but a track gets broken lose or hits the tank barrel and the barrel is knocked off. You get a couple hundred thousand soldiers moving and fighting and if something has even the most remote possibility of happening, it is going to happen sooner or later.

Although in this particular case, a 155mm round is very dangerous to any WW2 armored vehicle IMO and particularly to a vehicle as lightly armored Puma. Tanks and vehicles do not like being under artillery fire and if they have any choice in the matter will attempt to leave the area.

When I consider artillery fire vs tanks, I would expect some artillery kills of tanks but it should be relatively rare which I believe is the case. Also read some Zuelkhe. He is a good read but also amazing some of the weird things that happen.

[okeefe]

I have seen 1000:1 odds and it was 27 Tiger IIs and a bunch of other equipment vs 2 bazooka men (they held). I dont think its glitched, the only odds glitch i have noticed is sometimes whatever he is doing to reduce the fractions doesn't work and you get something like 123:123 instead of 1:1 not a big deal.

[Stelteck]

Also a lot of tanks, especially heavy german ones can broke due to mechanical issues or spontaneous fire, and it is not taken into account in the game. (So maybe tank looses are underestimated [;)])

[pedro0930]

Well, in Barbarossa Vic just added 10% chance for tank to be killed when they makes a kill hit so the German will take somewhat realistic attrition.

[loutro]

Can't recall the odds, but those are some brave guys sitting there.

[carll11]

ORIGINAL: Khanti

Not so uber 155 Howitzer, but still can kill with odds like 17:104. Typical unfortunately.



And how it should have ended ([;)])

The images dont appear/work,...?

[carll11]

ORIGINAL: loutro


Can't recall the odds, but those are some brave guys sitting there.

Was that the 'after' battle image, or did they fight off your Mot. unit?

I just had a 400 man fus. bn. 92 AP 89 RPs & 'Ok' supply, stopped by 15 rearguard and 2 Stuarts....

[loutro]

ORIGINAL: carll11

ORIGINAL: loutro


Can't recall the odds, but those are some brave guys sitting there.

Was that the 'after' battle image, or did they fight off your Mot. unit?

I just had a 400 man fus. bn. 92 AP 89 RPs & 'Ok' supply, stopped by 15 rearguard and 2 Stuarts....

Was after the battle. Some of these results are a bit too weird