Some concern over 1.12.0 "Case blue" changes. (Feedback Taxman66?)

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AshFall
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Some concern over 1.12.0 "Case blue" changes. (Feedback Taxman66?)

Post by AshFall »

I've been testing out the 1942 "Case Blue" scenario a bit in hotseat due to upcoming matches in the ongoing tournament featuring the scenario.

I can't help but feel that increasing Soviet infantry weapon tech to 2 at start is a mistake. I would love to hear from Taxman66 on the background and thought behind the change.

Reasons behind my thinking:
- The axis position is deceptively weak.

A: Their tech is horrendously underdeveloped (AA 1, Tanks, Fighters, AT, ground attack weapons 2, Production 2 and industry 1 (!), Logistics 2 (!), Spying & Intelligence 1. They only start with a 1175 investment into tech.

Compared to allied tech, where the UK has parity in weapons techs (!) except AT. Key is UK spying & intelligence at 2, ensuring upcoming teach advantages. The USSR has Advanced armor parity, though crucially lacking warfare, but starting out with production 3 and industry 2. The USSR starts nearly maxed out in tech investment. (Total axis start investment is 1575, allied is 4925 despite parity in many important techs).

B: The USSR matches German income right out the gate. (860 to German 852, Western allies 394+352 is pure outproduction out the gate. This till get significantly worse as the USSR gets more industry tech. Even though Germany will make some gains in the USSR, taking many resources, this will be somewhat offset by allied diplomacy and/or strategic bombing.

C: Italy is just dreadful. Their tech, income and general positioning is just...

D: Axis positioning at start is downright awful in many places, commensurate with USSR awful positioning. The UK and USA have large armies ready to move when the Allies need it.

E: Barring serious allied misplay NA is a lost cause.

- The USSR can lose almost everything, up to and including Grozny, Stalingrad/Astrakhan, Moscow, Gorky and Leningrad and still win. Their economy with maxed convoys and Double chitted industry can take it. Note that offering an armistice upon the capture of Stalingrad, Moscow and Leningrad is optional, there is no reason to do so, especially in a tournament setting.

- The major turning point of the eastern front is usually the USSR achieving infantry weapons 3, and to a lesser extent infantry weapons 2. With inf weapons 3 they have combat equal corps and armies at half cost. Now they start the scenario with shock armies with lvl 2 infantry weapons. This gives them cost equal armies with straight up better stats (10% extra demoralization, 4 base action points rather than 3) -that take one turn to build-.

Inf weapons 3 will arrive mid/late 1943, coinciding with allied research times and buildups.

My concern is that the change has taken a scenario that was admittedly rough for the Soviets but completely winnable for the allies and turned it into an absolute no win scenario for the axis. I can maybe see the AA 1 at start, that should be well enough if the USSR was really struggling and impossible to hang on with.

Thoughts?
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Taxman66
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RE: Some concern over 1.12.0 "Case blue" changes. (Feedback Taxman66?)

Post by Taxman66 »

The idea is that the without it, Russia never becomes a threat. Never.
At Inf Weapons 1, they won't see Inf Weapons 2 until near the end of summer 1943. Inf Weapons 2 is equivalent to everyone elses' Inf Weapons 1. So even then they are in a looser position. They won't see Inf Weapons 3 until Fall of 1944. By then Russia will be a non-factor.

Everyone's Tech choices in these scenarios is rather suspect too. With GE you can sell off that AT level 3 chit & the Heavy Bombers Chit if you want, and start with 200 MPP so if you want you can buy Spy&Intel & Industry on Turn 1.
All the other important stuff already has a chit in them.

It's a shame they can't set starting research percentage at a value greater than 0. Russia should probably be at Inf Weapons 1 with around 50% towards 2. Maybe a bit higher to get to 2 before the Siege of Stalingrad.

Perhaps the better option is to modify the victory conditions. I took a quick peruse and there seems to only be decisive victory options.
"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft
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archmache
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RE: Some concern over 1.12.0 "Case blue" changes. (Feedback Taxman66?)

Post by archmache »

Normally whenever I play the '39 scenario I sell research chips to get started on Infantry Weapons 1 from the beginning of the game. I always have Level 2 infantry by the time Barbarossa starts so I think having level 2 IW by '42 is completely reasonable for Soviets.

Also remember with the new patch Soviet Infantry have been readjusted down so your "lvl 2" is actually the same as "lvl 1" form earlier in the year (if I understand this correctly).

In regards to "major turning point" I don't think IW has anything to do with it - having lvl 2 is necessary for defense but infantry alone will not beat OKH. Dedicated armor assultats combined with either 1) artillery or 2) tactical bombers is the move to break OKH positions. Infantry that is just spammed will be constantly smashed over a slow grind I have found.

I could be wrong though since I only play the '39 scenario but I did take a look to just to see what would show up in the tourney. I think after we do this match the community will have a statical graph to show the results for the current '42 scenario.

Also question: I was playing agains the AI and had Italy take Paris but it surrendered to Germany. Is that supposed to happen?
Duedman
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RE: Some concern over 1.12.0 "Case blue" changes. (Feedback Taxman66?)

Post by Duedman »

I also think this really nice scenario was kinda ruined due to these buffs. It is extremely hard now as Axis.
And while historically it probably should be, it is now just another Scenario that Axis can not win vs a decent opponent (like 1943 and 1944)
AshFall
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RE: Some concern over 1.12.0 "Case blue" changes. (Feedback Taxman66?)

Post by AshFall »

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

The idea is that the without it, Russia never becomes a threat. Never.
At Inf Weapons 1, they won't see Inf Weapons 2 until near the end of summer 1943. Inf Weapons 2 is equivalent to everyone elses' Inf Weapons 1. So even then they are in a looser position. They won't see Inf Weapons 3 until Fall of 1944. By then Russia will be a non-factor.

Everyone's Tech choices in these scenarios is rather suspect too. With GE you can sell off that AT level 3 chit & the Heavy Bombers Chit if you want, and start with 200 MPP so if you want you can buy Spy&Intel & Industry on Turn 1.
All the other important stuff already has a chit in them.

It's a shame they can't set starting research percentage at a value greater than 0. Russia should probably be at Inf Weapons 1 with around 50% towards 2. Maybe a bit higher to get to 2 before the Siege of Stalingrad.

Perhaps the better option is to modify the victory conditions. I took a quick peruse and there seems to only be decisive victory options.

As far as I have seen this isnt accurate.

The campaign lasts until 1947.

Even with the gains I described above, every major objective and then some, the USSR economy remains at worst equal to German. In the 39 scenario that is supposing the WAllies dont lose NA and Iraq, or that Germany has not successfully aligned spain/Turkey. None of these are an issue in the 42 scenario.

The reason inf weapons 3 is the turning point is that it allows soviet armies and corps to start trading equally with their German counterparts, while costing half the amount. Any fight where the losses taken are 1:1 favors the soviets.

In fact, given the overall allied resource advantage (which will grow as the campaign progresses even if the WAllies send maxiumum soviet aid to keep the USSR economy equal to german) even 2:1 losses are acceptable on armies and corps.

Strat bombing and diplomacy -will- eat the German economy alive.

The Soviets only need to survive until 44ish. When they do (not at issue in the 42 scenario even without the changes as far as I can see) they start attritioning the Germans at a favourable MPP exchange rate.

The moment that happens. The moment the Soviets begin bleeding the Germans at a favorable rate the same time as the WAllies invade, the game is essentially done. Given equal skill of course.

It might take until 46-47, but it's done. The Germans collapse very quickly once it starts going downhill in my experience.

This not even taking the six shock armies into account, these are better than German armies at IW 2, cost the same, and is rebuilt very quickly (1PD, lower if destroyed in good supply). Again, the Soviets just need to cost the Germans MPPs.
AshFall
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RE: Some concern over 1.12.0 "Case blue" changes. (Feedback Taxman66?)

Post by AshFall »

ORIGINAL: archmache

Normally whenever I play the '39 scenario I sell research chips to get started on Infantry Weapons 1 from the beginning of the game. I always have Level 2 infantry by the time Barbarossa starts so I think having level 2 IW by '42 is completely reasonable for Soviets.

Also remember with the new patch Soviet Infantry have been readjusted down so your "lvl 2" is actually the same as "lvl 1" form earlier in the year (if I understand this correctly).

In regards to "major turning point" I don't think IW has anything to do with it - having lvl 2 is necessary for defense but infantry alone will not beat OKH. Dedicated armor assultats combined with either 1) artillery or 2) tactical bombers is the move to break OKH positions. Infantry that is just spammed will be constantly smashed over a slow grind I have found.

I could be wrong though since I only play the '39 scenario but I did take a look to just to see what would show up in the tourney. I think after we do this match the community will have a statical graph to show the results for the current '42 scenario.

Also question: I was playing agains the AI and had Italy take Paris but it surrendered to Germany. Is that supposed to happen?

Cant really compare it to a 39 game, given the tech and units in play for the Germans. I have never seen or played an axis game with equal armor tech, equal fighter tech, low LRA and GWA, and a staggering amount of tanks, mech and air unbuilt by 42. There is no good comparison here. This is not even taking the low German leader XP into account, many of them would usually be 3 stars by 42, now they are at best 1 star.

Soviet armies and corps have been 1 "step" weaker than their german counterparts for as long as I have played at least, they become equal but still half the cost at IW 3.

AshFall
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Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:20 am

RE: Some concern over 1.12.0 "Case blue" changes. (Feedback Taxman66?)

Post by AshFall »

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

It's a shame they can't set starting research percentage at a value greater than 0. Russia should probably be at Inf Weapons 1 with around 50% towards 2. Maybe a bit higher to get to 2 before the Siege of Stalingrad.

Perhaps the better option is to modify the victory conditions. I took a quick peruse and there seems to only be decisive victory options.

The 1942 case blue strategy guide has the more detailed victory conditions, I think they still apply? Weird that the ingame victory conditions dont show them (but the tooltip does refer to the guide).

On a constructive note the Soviets could be given Spying and Intelligence lvl 2. That increases their research speed over the Germans by 1% per chit, meaning they should get IW2 & 3 faster.
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Taxman66
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RE: Some concern over 1.12.0 "Case blue" changes. (Feedback Taxman66?)

Post by Taxman66 »

GE starts at Spy & Intel 2, iirc.
"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft
AshFall
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RE: Some concern over 1.12.0 "Case blue" changes. (Feedback Taxman66?)

Post by AshFall »

German vs Soviet tech.

Image

The UK does however start with Spying & int 2.
AshFall
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RE: Some concern over 1.12.0 "Case blue" changes. (Feedback Taxman66?)

Post by AshFall »

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

GE starts at Spy & Intel 2, iirc.

Germany does start with lvl 1 (see above). So giving USSR lvl 2 instead could be a viable option.

Would need to remove some other starting chits to balance it out a bit, an armored warfare chit and infantry warfare chit maybe? Given that those will research faster as well due to the increased S&I.
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