Inaccurate Tiger & Panther values

This is meant for reports dealing with issues only on the scenario/unit data and map data.

Moderators: Joel Billings, RedLancer

Post Reply
cameron88
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:35 am

Inaccurate Tiger & Panther values

Post by cameron88 »

There is numerous inaccurate tank and gun values, atleast from a historical standpoint in the game after looking through them, but it bothers me that the most famous tanks of Germany have some big inaccuracies and will only be talking about them, as i dont want to write a 20 page essay. I will address below, provide evidence and documentation to what i said, and suggest what values that should be changed to to help developers if they want to update it.

Panther Accuracy:
Ingame currently, the Panther D has 750 accuracy, Panther A has 1000 accuracy, and Panther G has 1300 accuracy. All 3 of these tanks have the same gun/'device' ingame, and in real life, which is the KWK42 L/70. Between the 3 produced variants, there was no changes to gun sights, the gun itself, nor any other notable reason as to why these accuracies would be so unrealistically different ingame, they should be exactly the same.

I suggest developers increase both the Panther D & A to 1300 accuracy, which is the same as the Panther G.

Some quotes from https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ about Panther variant production changes/differences:
"The new Ausf.A turret, like the chassis, underwent changes during its production. The 7.5 cm Kw.K.42 L/70 gun was the same and so was the binocular T.Z.F.12 gun sight."

Panther Armour:
Ingame currently, the Panther D has 122 front armor, and the A and G have 124 front armor. The Panther D and A in real life both had exactly the same front armor, in the hull and turret. The only improvement in frontal armor was with the G variant, and the changing of the gun mantlet to stop the 'shot trap' issues of deflecting shells, with increasing the average thickness from 100mm front to 110mm, and removing the bottom rounding.
The Panther D & A ingame have 45 side armor, and the Panther G has 48 side armor. In real life both the Panther D and A had the same hulls, while the Panther G had an increase of +10mm in side armor.


I suggest developers make the The Panther D and A have the same 124mm front armor. I also suggest the Panther G have its front armor increased from 124mm to 130mm due to improving its gun mantlet over previous models and its side armor be increased from 48mm to around 52mm aswell.

Some information - https://www.ww2-weapons.com/panther-tank/ https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/germ ... anther.php


Tiger I Accuracy & Range:

Ingame the Tiger I has significantly less range, and less accuracy than the Panther tanks.

88mm KwK36 L/56 (Tiger Gun + Tank)
3400 range
425 accuracy + 825 tank accuracy

75mm KwK40 L/70 (Panther Gun + Tank)
4000 Range
500 accuracy + 1300 tank accuracy

In real life these values are inaccurate in comparison to each other as seen below:

Both guns had the exact same muzzle velocity for their standard round 930m/s

The max range for Tiger 1s gun was 10,500 m (34,449 ft) while the Panthers max range for gun was 9,850 m (32,316 ft).

The accuracy of both the 75mm and 88mm are EXACTLY THE SAME. Both in training/range trials, and in combat reports for hit chances. You could also take combat reports where Tigers hit and killed significantly more Soviet or allied tanks compared to the Panther, but fundamentally the data from the guns and tanks themselves have the same accuracy and it should be represented ingame.

I suggest the developers change the gun and tank values between the tanks identical, or slighty less values, such as the ones below:

Suggested change (Tiger Gun + Tank)
3400 range > 3900 range.
425 gun accuracy > 480 gun accuracy.
825 tank accuracy > 1100 tank accuracy.

-Referances & Accuracy charts https://panzerworld.com/7-5-cm-kw-k-42-l-70#accuracy https://panzerworld.com/8-8-cm-kw-k-36-l-56




Tiger I Armor:
In the last update you improved the Tiger I armor values, but they are still not accurate. "Increased the front armor of the Tiger from 105 to 107 and side armor from 73 to 80"

The Tiger Is side armor is 82mm, not 80mm, so if you're going to improve it you might aswell add the extra 2mm to be historical.

In regards to frontal armor, in real life the Tiger I had 102mm front hull armor. However what was special is that the Tiger Is front turret was almost entirely covered by its gun mantlet, which in itself ranged from 100mm-200mm of thickness, and averages out the front turret armor to around 160+mm, as can be seen in War Thunder when viewing the tank, or 3d armor displays.

The Tiger I was also the only German tank to have extremely high armor quality, by uniquely using homogeneous armor (armor with a uniform hardness throughout the thickness) as opposed to face hardened like other German and allied tanks. Where on paper many Soviet and allied guns could penetrate the front and sides, failed to do so, such as the 85mm soviet guns(in the front), 75/76mm American/British guns(churchhill,sherman,cromwell ect) in both the front and sides. Depending on if you incorporate armor thickness into any other tanks, this is an important thing to consider, more so on the tiger then any other tank.

A quote regarding armor quality - "The rolled homogeneous nickel-steel plate, electro-welded interlocking-plate construction armor had a Brinell hardness index of 255-260 (the best homogeneous armor hardness level for WW II standards), and rigorous quality control procedures ensured that it stayed that way. The Tiger I's armor was much superior to that of, for example the Panther, which armor had a much higher Brinell index, and consequently, was very brittle." "The 13.(Tiger) Kompanie, of Panzer Regiment Großdeutschland, reported on the armor protection of the Tiger: "During a scouting patrol two Tigers encountered about 20 Russian tanks on their front, while additional Russian tanks attacked from behind. A battle developed in which the armor and weapons of the Tiger were extraordinarily successful. Both Tigers were hit (mainly by 76.2 mm armor-piercing shells) 10 or more times at ranges from 500 to 1,000 meters. The armor held up all around. Not a single round penetrated through the armor. Also hits in the running gear, in which the suspension arms were torn away, did not immobilize the Tiger. While 76.2 mm anti-tank shells continuously struck outside the armor, on the inside, undisturbed, the commander, gunner, and loader selected targets, aimed, and fired. The end result was 10 enemy tanks knocked out by two Tigers within 15 minutes"

Ingame the Early Tiger I top armor is 25mm, however in real life by mid 1943 due to ability of allied planes to penetrate this, it was increased on the production line and in some cases in the field to 40mm of armor as standard. Because more Tiger Is were produced from mid 1943 onwards and there is no different variants ingame, i believe this should be increased to 40mm.


I suggest you change to Tiger Is armor to the follow values (considering you average out turret and hull armor), 130mm front armor(120mm minimum), 82mm side armor, and 40mm top armor.

Information - https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/germ ... _tiger.php https://id3486.securedata.net/fprado/ar ... er1-02.htm




Denniss
Posts: 8034
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 10:00 am
Location: Germany, Hannover (region)

RE: Inaccurate Tiger & Panther values

Post by Denniss »

Panther G had a thinner plate in the lower hull, the angle of the side armor was reduced to increase the inner hull space so with thicker plates it was barely more effective.
the 'chin' gun mantlet was far from common on the Panther G, they were delivered with old mantlet to the end although in decreasing numbers.
WitE dev team - (aircraft data)
WitE 1.08+ dev team (data/scenario maintainer)
WitW dev team (aircraft data, partial data/scenario maintainer)
WitE2 dev team (aircraft data)
jaw
Posts: 1045
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:07 pm

RE: Inaccurate Tiger & Panther values

Post by jaw »

Most of the gun data is pretty old, going back to WitE I so it probably warrants going back over these values. Just the other day I purchased a new book, Chris McNab's HITLER'S PANZERS, so the book and your post give me the motivation to go down this rabbit hole again.

According to the information I have, Panther Ds and early Panther As used the TZF12 gun sight while later Panther As and the Panther G used the improved TZF12a gun sight. In the game the Panther A's accuracy is based on an average of these two sights.

As for armor values for the Tiger or anything else, conflicting sources make this area always fraught with uncertainty. I've looked at the numbers in WAR THUNDER and they seem to be an outlier compared with other sources. I will certainly take another pass at the Tiger but I can't promise I'll be convinced to make more changes. BTW, armor upgrades like the roof armor you mentioned and the gun sights on the Panther A, are examples of the kind of judgement calls that are difficult to make. No matter which way you go somebody is going to be disappointed and posting about it.

Thanks,

Jim Wirth
Post Reply

Return to “Scenario Data / Map Issues”