MIG Alley type scenarios

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Phoenix100
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MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by Phoenix100 »

Just checking - I can't find any Sabre v Mig type scenarios, either official, or in the community pack. Is that right, or am I missing one somewhere? Does anyone know of any such scenarios that might be out there, that I've missed? Thanks.
c3k
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by c3k »

This sounds very interesting...
stolypin
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by stolypin »

I would love to see some (and would gladly purchase a DLC on the topic) but the closest thing we have currently is my one-and-only Command scenario, Stalin's Bulls, which focuses on hypothetical use of the TU-4 by the Soviets during the Korean War.
Phoenix100
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by Phoenix100 »

Ok. Thanks. Hope someone good at scenario design can some day make a good Mig Alley scenario. Would be nice. Meanwhile, I'll look at Stalin's Bulls. Thanks Stolypin.
stww2
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by stww2 »

There's a CSP scenario called "Meteors over Korea, 1952" I believe. I've never played it but judging by the title it at least involves jets, if not Sabres specifically. There are a handful of Korean War scenarios, but I'm not aware of any that specifically cover Mig Ally. As a practical matter limited air engagements between gun-fighters isn't exactly CMO's strong suit, since the AI doesn't really have any sort of sophisticated air combat maneuvering capability.
boogabooga
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by boogabooga »

I've been thinking about adapting the Rolling Thunder Quick Battle into other theaters, and Korea is one I'm considering. There are a few problems:

-There isn't a lot for the player to interact with in this kind of mission. You send out an air patrol to a pre-defined location and the opFor intercepts you. What should the broader goal of the mission be? The time period lacks a lot of the nuance present in later time periods regarding tanker logistics, electronic warfare, dedicated SEAD, loadout options, radar use, etc.

-Swirling gunfighter dogfights are not really CMO's strong point. Doable, yes. But not strong. Probably going to end up in a big one-circle fight in the horizontal plane at constant altitude until one side runs low on fuel.
The boogabooga doctrine for CMO: Any intentional human intervention needs to be able to completely and reliably over-ride anything that the AI is doing at any time.
Phoenix100
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by Phoenix100 »

I experimented a bit putting Migs into scenarios and playing other scenarios where it came down to guns-only fights and, yes, you are both sadly correct, boogabooga and stww2. It wasn't fun to watch. Either - as you said, Boogabooga - endless, stuck, one-turn fights at miraculously fixed altitude, or, worse, the jets were outmatched by slower prop fighters because they couldn't turn inside the slower machines and didn't have a clue how to 'energy fight' etc. So, for that reason alone, I think it would be a waste of time doing a Mig Alley type scenario - because dogfighting just doesn't work in-game. But also, as remarked above - what would you do? Plan long range caps, sit back and watch, basically. Yeah, maybe there's good reasons why no one has done one. Thanks.
thewood1
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by thewood1 »

Maybe something like the battle over Namsi where you have to plan out B-29 raids with escort over some long distances. CMO isn't a dogfighting simulation. Its looking at the more operational aspects of the battles. I would think DCS would do a better job of that.
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Coiler12
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by Coiler12 »

One of the things I've started with a few fun scenario editor experiments and hope to make into a full-blown scenario that both features Korean War aircraft and plays to Command's strength is having a greater ability and willingness of the northerners/Chinese/Soviets to attack the UN fleet with aircraft.
boogabooga
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by boogabooga »

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

I experimented a bit putting Migs into scenarios and playing other scenarios where it came down to guns-only fights and, yes, you are both sadly correct, boogabooga and stww2. It wasn't fun to watch. Either - as you said, Boogabooga - endless, stuck, one-turn fights at miraculously fixed altitude, or, worse, the jets were outmatched by slower prop fighters because they couldn't turn inside the slower machines and didn't have a clue how to 'energy fight' etc. So, for that reason alone, I think it would be a waste of time doing a Mig Alley type scenario - because dogfighting just doesn't work in-game. But also, as remarked above - what would you do? Plan long range caps, sit back and watch, basically. Yeah, maybe there's good reasons why no one has done one. Thanks.

I wouldn't go as far to say waste of time. "Fun" is really subjective- CMO is extremely niche as it is. I understand the case for historical accuracy being as important a factor for some players' enjoyment as any of the detractors. Like a (semi) interactive history lesson.
The boogabooga doctrine for CMO: Any intentional human intervention needs to be able to completely and reliably over-ride anything that the AI is doing at any time.
boogabooga
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by boogabooga »

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Maybe something like the battle over Namsi where you have to plan out B-29 raids with escort over some long distances. CMO isn't a dogfighting simulation. Its looking at the more operational aspects of the battles. I would think DCS would do a better job of that.


Unfortunately, the B-29s and similar aircraft have been removed from the latest CWDB.
The boogabooga doctrine for CMO: Any intentional human intervention needs to be able to completely and reliably over-ride anything that the AI is doing at any time.
thewood1
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by thewood1 »

I think B-50s are in there and are basically the same in CMO.
You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. - BDukes
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Pygmalion
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by Pygmalion »

ORIGINAL: boogabooga

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Maybe something like the battle over Namsi where you have to plan out B-29 raids with escort over some long distances. CMO isn't a dogfighting simulation. Its looking at the more operational aspects of the battles. I would think DCS would do a better job of that.


Unfortunately, the B-29s and similar aircraft have been removed from the latest CWDB.

We never remove things from either DB; it would be horrible for backwards compatibility. My latest copy still has the B-29A and B-29B in there as DBIDs 388 and 2193, respectively.
Ethan "Pygmalion" Hermanson
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thewood1
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by thewood1 »

In CWDB 491 I can't find them.
You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. - BDukes
Oh good lord stop. Does anybody ever like you? - BDukes
boogabooga
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by boogabooga »

They are gone for me in CWDB v491.
The boogabooga doctrine for CMO: Any intentional human intervention needs to be able to completely and reliably over-ride anything that the AI is doing at any time.
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Kushan04
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by Kushan04 »

Not sure why they are not showing in the DB viewer. Logged a bug report.

In the meantime you should be able to create them via lua.
boogabooga
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by boogabooga »

Not just missing from viewer. I tried to rebuild a scenario with B-29s; it failed because of the missing units.
The boogabooga doctrine for CMO: Any intentional human intervention needs to be able to completely and reliably over-ride anything that the AI is doing at any time.
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