MIG Alley type scenarios

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Phoenix100
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MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by Phoenix100 »

Just checking - I can't find any Sabre v Mig type scenarios, either official, or in the community pack. Is that right, or am I missing one somewhere? Does anyone know of any such scenarios that might be out there, that I've missed? Thanks.
c3k
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by c3k »

This sounds very interesting...
stolypin
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by stolypin »

I would love to see some (and would gladly purchase a DLC on the topic) but the closest thing we have currently is my one-and-only Command scenario, Stalin's Bulls, which focuses on hypothetical use of the TU-4 by the Soviets during the Korean War.
Phoenix100
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by Phoenix100 »

Ok. Thanks. Hope someone good at scenario design can some day make a good Mig Alley scenario. Would be nice. Meanwhile, I'll look at Stalin's Bulls. Thanks Stolypin.
stww2
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by stww2 »

There's a CSP scenario called "Meteors over Korea, 1952" I believe. I've never played it but judging by the title it at least involves jets, if not Sabres specifically. There are a handful of Korean War scenarios, but I'm not aware of any that specifically cover Mig Ally. As a practical matter limited air engagements between gun-fighters isn't exactly CMO's strong suit, since the AI doesn't really have any sort of sophisticated air combat maneuvering capability.
boogabooga
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by boogabooga »

I've been thinking about adapting the Rolling Thunder Quick Battle into other theaters, and Korea is one I'm considering. There are a few problems:

-There isn't a lot for the player to interact with in this kind of mission. You send out an air patrol to a pre-defined location and the opFor intercepts you. What should the broader goal of the mission be? The time period lacks a lot of the nuance present in later time periods regarding tanker logistics, electronic warfare, dedicated SEAD, loadout options, radar use, etc.

-Swirling gunfighter dogfights are not really CMO's strong point. Doable, yes. But not strong. Probably going to end up in a big one-circle fight in the horizontal plane at constant altitude until one side runs low on fuel.
The boogabooga doctrine for CMO: Any intentional human intervention needs to be able to completely and reliably over-ride anything that the AI is doing at any time.
Phoenix100
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by Phoenix100 »

I experimented a bit putting Migs into scenarios and playing other scenarios where it came down to guns-only fights and, yes, you are both sadly correct, boogabooga and stww2. It wasn't fun to watch. Either - as you said, Boogabooga - endless, stuck, one-turn fights at miraculously fixed altitude, or, worse, the jets were outmatched by slower prop fighters because they couldn't turn inside the slower machines and didn't have a clue how to 'energy fight' etc. So, for that reason alone, I think it would be a waste of time doing a Mig Alley type scenario - because dogfighting just doesn't work in-game. But also, as remarked above - what would you do? Plan long range caps, sit back and watch, basically. Yeah, maybe there's good reasons why no one has done one. Thanks.
thewood1
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by thewood1 »

Maybe something like the battle over Namsi where you have to plan out B-29 raids with escort over some long distances. CMO isn't a dogfighting simulation. Its looking at the more operational aspects of the battles. I would think DCS would do a better job of that.
You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes
Coiler12
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by Coiler12 »

One of the things I've started with a few fun scenario editor experiments and hope to make into a full-blown scenario that both features Korean War aircraft and plays to Command's strength is having a greater ability and willingness of the northerners/Chinese/Soviets to attack the UN fleet with aircraft.
boogabooga
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by boogabooga »

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

I experimented a bit putting Migs into scenarios and playing other scenarios where it came down to guns-only fights and, yes, you are both sadly correct, boogabooga and stww2. It wasn't fun to watch. Either - as you said, Boogabooga - endless, stuck, one-turn fights at miraculously fixed altitude, or, worse, the jets were outmatched by slower prop fighters because they couldn't turn inside the slower machines and didn't have a clue how to 'energy fight' etc. So, for that reason alone, I think it would be a waste of time doing a Mig Alley type scenario - because dogfighting just doesn't work in-game. But also, as remarked above - what would you do? Plan long range caps, sit back and watch, basically. Yeah, maybe there's good reasons why no one has done one. Thanks.

I wouldn't go as far to say waste of time. "Fun" is really subjective- CMO is extremely niche as it is. I understand the case for historical accuracy being as important a factor for some players' enjoyment as any of the detractors. Like a (semi) interactive history lesson.
The boogabooga doctrine for CMO: Any intentional human intervention needs to be able to completely and reliably over-ride anything that the AI is doing at any time.
boogabooga
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by boogabooga »

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Maybe something like the battle over Namsi where you have to plan out B-29 raids with escort over some long distances. CMO isn't a dogfighting simulation. Its looking at the more operational aspects of the battles. I would think DCS would do a better job of that.


Unfortunately, the B-29s and similar aircraft have been removed from the latest CWDB.
The boogabooga doctrine for CMO: Any intentional human intervention needs to be able to completely and reliably over-ride anything that the AI is doing at any time.
thewood1
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by thewood1 »

I think B-50s are in there and are basically the same in CMO.
You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes
Pygmalion
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by Pygmalion »

ORIGINAL: boogabooga

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Maybe something like the battle over Namsi where you have to plan out B-29 raids with escort over some long distances. CMO isn't a dogfighting simulation. Its looking at the more operational aspects of the battles. I would think DCS would do a better job of that.


Unfortunately, the B-29s and similar aircraft have been removed from the latest CWDB.

We never remove things from either DB; it would be horrible for backwards compatibility. My latest copy still has the B-29A and B-29B in there as DBIDs 388 and 2193, respectively.
Ethan "Pygmalion" Hermanson
Database Manager, Command Development Team
thewood1
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by thewood1 »

In CWDB 491 I can't find them.
You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes
boogabooga
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by boogabooga »

They are gone for me in CWDB v491.
The boogabooga doctrine for CMO: Any intentional human intervention needs to be able to completely and reliably over-ride anything that the AI is doing at any time.
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Kushan04
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by Kushan04 »

Not sure why they are not showing in the DB viewer. Logged a bug report.

In the meantime you should be able to create them via lua.
boogabooga
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RE: MIG Alley type scenarios

Post by boogabooga »

Not just missing from viewer. I tried to rebuild a scenario with B-29s; it failed because of the missing units.
The boogabooga doctrine for CMO: Any intentional human intervention needs to be able to completely and reliably over-ride anything that the AI is doing at any time.
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