Full Motorization

A complete overhaul and re-development of Gary Grigsby's War in the East, with a focus on improvements to historical accuracy, realism, user interface and AI.

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HardLuckYetAgain
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Full Motorization

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

Any playing with "full motorization"?
Teo41_ITA
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by Teo41_ITA »

You mean motorizing all non-motorized units? [&:]
HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Teo41_ITA

You mean motorizing all non-motorized units? [&:]

Yes
Teo41_ITA
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by Teo41_ITA »

Do you have enough vehicles and AP for that? I may give it a try ^^
HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Teo41_ITA

Do you have enough vehicles and AP for that? I may give it a try ^^

You sure do have enough vehicles and AP for Germany in 41. I made a prediction of how devastating it can be. Thus, I was asking if anyone was playing a game with full motorization to maybe have proven my prediction. I can prove it easily in an AI game but with a Head-to-head game could be more problematic, but the end result will still be devastating in current rule-set for motorization. Thus, anyone playing with current rule-set of full motorization?
jubjub
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by jubjub »

Gam3r and I allow it. Mostly it was just annoying in ‘41 bc Soviets were allowed to motorized at that time and I really had to keep my flanks secure.
HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: jubjub

Gam3r and I allow it. Mostly it was just annoying in ‘41 bc Soviets were allowed to motorized at that time and I really had to keep my flanks secure.

Did you use motorization much or any in that game?
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Zemke
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by Zemke »

Please define "Full Motorization".
"Actions Speak Louder than Words"
HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Zemke

Please define "Full Motorization".

Motorizing "non-motorized" units. i.e. motorizing a German(or Soviet in 42+) infantry division for 3 AP then the non-motorized German(or Soviet in 42+) infantry division gets motorization and a range of MP's from 32-48 as motorized. Or you can motorize a non-motorized infantry regiment for 1 AP and gain similar MP's from 32-48 as a motorized regiment. Thus gain a significant MP bonus of MP. Further in depth explanation can be found in the manual & the MP's I have noticed is normally 32-48 and may be different but that is what I have seen in my experiments. I hope this helps.

Please note that I am referencing "FULL" motorization as "NO" deviation from the rules in the manual. Meaning no house rules preventing said "motorized" units paid with AP from "not" going into ZOC.
jubjub
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by jubjub »

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: jubjub

Gam3r and I allow it. Mostly it was just annoying in ‘41 bc Soviets were allowed to motorized at that time and I really had to keep my flanks secure.

Did you use motorization much or any in that game?

Not very often. I wasn’t really looking to abuse it.
HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: jubjub

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: jubjub

Gam3r and I allow it. Mostly it was just annoying in ‘41 bc Soviets were allowed to motorized at that time and I really had to keep my flanks secure.

Did you use motorization much or any in that game?

Not very often. I wasn’t really looking to abuse it.

Understood, thank you for your answer.
Teo41_ITA
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by Teo41_ITA »

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

You sure do have enough vehicles and AP for Germany in 41. I made a prediction of how devastating it can be. Thus, I was asking if anyone was playing a game with full motorization to maybe have proven my prediction. I can prove it easily in an AI game but with a Head-to-head game could be more problematic, but the end result will still be devastating in current rule-set for motorization. Thus, anyone playing with current rule-set of full motorization?

Well, as I play against the AI with the "Impossible" difficulty, the 30% reduction in the logistics, transport efficiency and AP gain is taking its toll on my vehicles pool and AP gain. Regardless, I only motorize units for 1 turn, if I need an extra speed bump to close/reinforce the wings of a large pocket.
metaphore
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by metaphore »

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
[...] the MP's I have noticed is normally 32-48 and may be different but that is what I have seen in my experiments.

MPs recieved are based on prior MPs for the unit attempting motorization roll.
- If the unit pass a leader admin roll, MPs are multiplied by 3 => maximum is 48 (16 x 3)
- if the unit fail the roll, MPs are multiplied by 2 => maximum is 32

The 32-48 range is only possible for units having 16 MPs; if they have 15, it would be 30-45 or 28-42 for 14 MPs and so on.

So, to make the most of it, one need to pick those units with their full MPs and be sure that they are assigned to a good admin leader.

For example, if one want to "fully" motorize those three ID. in I. AK of 18. Armee on first turn for having a shot at Pskov on Turn 2, it's better to place them under LVI. AK directly before rolling any admin dice. Otherwise, up to three unlucky rolls could fail, while they will certainly all get their full bonus under Manstein.

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Zemke
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by Zemke »

I do that routinely in my games. The only way you can get units deep enough quickly, particularly with a Sir Robin.

Do you leave them motorized?
"Actions Speak Louder than Words"
HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: metaphore

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
[...] the MP's I have noticed is normally 32-48 and may be different but that is what I have seen in my experiments.

MPs recieved are based on prior MPs for the unit attempting motorization roll.
- If the unit pass a leader admin roll, MPs are multiplied by 3 => maximum is 48 (16 x 3)
- if the unit fail the roll, MPs are multiplied by 2 => maximum is 32

The 32-48 range is only possible for units having 16 MPs; if they have 15, it would be 30-45 or 28-42 for 14 MPs and so on.

So, to make the most of it, one need to pick those units with their full MPs and be sure that they are assigned to a good admin leader.

For example, if one want to "fully" motorize those three ID. in I. AK of 18. Armee on first turn for having a shot at Pskov on Turn 2, it's better to place them under LVI. AK directly before rolling any admin dice. Otherwise, up to three unlucky rolls could fail, while they will certainly all get their full bonus under Manstein.


Correct.
HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Zemke

I do that routinely in my games. The only way you can get units deep enough quickly, particularly with a Sir Robin.

Do you leave them motorized?

You are playing the AI? I am looking for Head-to-head.

To get the most from the motorization takes a bit of different game play but looks I may have to prove it out in a Head-to-head game in the future after some more Air patches.
DeletedUser44
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by DeletedUser44 »

I use it against the AI, as it is really over-powered, IMO.

In the early game, Germany has ample vehicles. So, to take a leg infantry div and "immediately" boost its movement from 16 to 45, at the cost of 3 AP and 1500 vehicles is hard to say no to.

I usually motorize 3 infantry divs (1 for each AG) at the start of the Barbarossa. Then later, when vehicles start to become scarce, I de-motorize them.

"Motorization" is not that unique of a concept and is included in many other historical simulations as well. HOWEVER, they usually incur a penalty as well, such as -

* 1 turn movement of 0 (when unit is first motorized); or,
* cannot enter other units ZOC; or,
* deduction in attack combat value; or,
* loss of motorization if unit attacked;
* ....

Currently, I think "motorization" could stand for a movement penalty of 0 movement points for the 1st turn of motorization. Otherwise, it is really too easy to exploit.

jubjub
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by jubjub »

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

I use it against the AI, as it is really over-powered, IMO.

In the early game, Germany has ample vehicles. So, to take a leg infantry div and "immediately" boost its movement from 16 to 45, at the cost of 3 AP and 1500 vehicles is hard to say no to.

I usually motorize 3 infantry divs (1 for each AG) at the start of the Barbarossa. Then later, when vehicles start to become scarce, I de-motorize them.

"Motorization" is not that unique of a concept and is included in many other historical simulations as well. HOWEVER, they usually incur a penalty as well, such as -

* 1 turn movement of 0 (when unit is first motorized); or,
* cannot enter other units ZOC; or,
* deduction in attack combat value; or,
* loss of motorization if unit attacked;
* ....

Currently, I think "motorization" could stand for a movement penalty of 0 movement points for the 1st turn of motorization. Otherwise, it is really too easy to exploit.


I like that idea.
DeletedUser44
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RE: Full Motorization

Post by DeletedUser44 »

I am going to give an example of how easy it is to exploit....

------

There is some defending stack of units that you REALLY need to route (vs simply retreat.... requiring you to expend precious movement points later to have to attack again... we all know this situation, right?)

Anyways, you take a nearby trash infantry division, motorize it, then break it down to 3 infantry regiments (all with approximately 40+ movement points)

Now, with all those *immediately* acquired movement points, you can easily isolate and surround that troublesome defending hex.

With the unit isolated/surrounded, any RETREAT result is automatically converted into a ROUTE result.

Problem solved.... by exploiting WiTE2 "motorization".

-----

A 1 turn movement penalty of 0 MPs would stop this exploit. ( although I would miss using it. [&:] )

In reality, it is going to take some time to draw all the vehicles necessary from the global motor pool to motorize a full division anyways. Noway this happens immediately....
HardLuckYetAgain
Posts: 7060
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:26 am

RE: Full Motorization

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

I am going to give an example of how easy it is to exploit....

------

There is some defending stack of units that you REALLY need to route (vs simply retreat.... requiring you to expend precious movement points later to have to attack again... we all know this situation, right?)

Anyways, you take a nearby trash infantry division, motorize it, then break it down to 3 infantry regiments (all with approximately 40+ movement points)

Now, with all those *immediately* acquired movement points, you can easily isolate and surround that troublesome defending hex.

With the unit isolated/surrounded, any RETREAT result is automatically converted into a ROUTE result.

Problem solved.... by exploiting WiTE2 "motorization".

-----

A 1 turn movement penalty of 0 MPs would stop this exploit. ( although I would miss using it. [&:] )

In reality, it is going to take some time to draw all the vehicles necessary from the global motor pool to motorize a full division anyways. Noway this happens immediately....

I have preached what you have wrote in your previous post and what is here. Motorization is devastating, yet we as WITE2 have not shown the current rendition to be true. Thus, I was seeing if any others have had head-to-head games where they used motorization to add to the rhetoric that is motorization to our repository of fact. Motorization is probably lacking since many players can see the writing on the wall or read what was written before by others and myself and ruled it out. I believe it is time to prove this out for those willing to be the lab rats for it to be used against them.
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