Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

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goldfinger35
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Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by goldfinger35 »

Is there any way to detect diesel electric subs with sonobuoys? Iranian Kilo sub at shallow/cruise speed cannot be detected with numerous sonobuoys dropped by P-8 MPA plane and SH-60B helos. It just waltzed through all sonobuoys without being detected.



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CV60
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by CV60 »

If you have an idea of approximately where he is, a couple of active buoys might help. Also, I'm not sure what the layer depth was, but there seems to be mostly above layer passive buoys invic the Kilo. If he was below the layer, that would impact their ability to find him. FYI, diesel electric and AIP boats are very quiet.
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goldfinger35
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by goldfinger35 »

Yes, electric subs are quiet but he passed all plane and helo buoys without breaking a sweat. They dropped combination of above/below bouys, but even shallow bouys did't detect Kilo at shallow depth when he was only 1nm away.
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SeaQueen
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by SeaQueen »

Use active sonobuoys.
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goldfinger35
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by goldfinger35 »

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

Use active sonobuoys.

Can I force plane/helo to use only active? They randomly drop passive and active, above and below layer.
thewood1
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by thewood1 »

From the hotkey list:

Shift + [ Drop Passive Sonobuoy, Shallow - Over Layer
[ Drop Passive Sonobuoy, Deep - Under Layer
Shift + ] Drop Active Sonobuoy, Shallow - Over Layer
] Drop Active Sonobuoy, Deep - Under Layer

And Pg 68 in the manual:

"4.1.2 ASW-specific Actions:
Drop Passive Sonobuoy: If the aircraft has sonobuoys in its
inventory, it drops it. Sonobuoys can be dropped above or
below the thermal layer (see 9.2.3, Submarine Combat). Passive
sonobuoys are the main source of anti-submarine warfare.

Drop Active Sonobuoy: This drops a sonobuoy that actively
pings. As the submarine will know it’s being watched, active
sonobuoys are traditionally used only to pinpoint the exact
location of an already-detected contact prior to an attack.

Deploy Dipping Sonar: If the aircraft is a helicopter with a
dipping sonar, it stops, hovers low, and deploys it.
Function key functions: Allow you to call on unit level functions.
See the shortcut bar, “Buttons and Windows” for more information."
You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes
BobTank63
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by BobTank63 »

Diesel-electric subs are incredibly quiet. It is very hard to detect one without using active sonar. I'd recommend setting the ASW mission you have to use active sonar so the helos will go active on their dipping sonars.
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goldfinger35
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by goldfinger35 »

ORIGINAL: thewood1

From the hotkey list:

Shift + [ Drop Passive Sonobuoy, Shallow - Over Layer
[ Drop Passive Sonobuoy, Deep - Under Layer
Shift + ] Drop Active Sonobuoy, Shallow - Over Layer
] Drop Active Sonobuoy, Deep - Under Layer

And Pg 68 in the manual:

"4.1.2 ASW-specific Actions:
Drop Passive Sonobuoy: If the aircraft has sonobuoys in its
inventory, it drops it. Sonobuoys can be dropped above or
below the thermal layer (see 9.2.3, Submarine Combat). Passive
sonobuoys are the main source of anti-submarine warfare.

Drop Active Sonobuoy: This drops a sonobuoy that actively
pings. As the submarine will know it’s being watched, active
sonobuoys are traditionally used only to pinpoint the exact
location of an already-detected contact prior to an attack.

Deploy Dipping Sonar: If the aircraft is a helicopter with a
dipping sonar, it stops, hovers low, and deploys it.
Function key functions: Allow you to call on unit level functions.
See the shortcut bar, “Buttons and Windows” for more information."

I know about manual method, but manually searching for subs (dropping buoys) in 48h mission is no fun.


ORIGINAL: BobTank63

Diesel-electric subs are incredibly quiet. It is very hard to detect one without using active sonar. I'd recommend setting the ASW mission you have to use active sonar so the helos will go active on their dipping sonars.

Yes, it is set in ASW mission but P8 plane and SH-60 helo don't have one. They just flood the area with buoys and helo uses MAD.
thewood1
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by thewood1 »

"Can I force plane/helo to use only active? They randomly drop passive and active, above and below layer."

Here is what you asked for. I don't see you saying anything about doing it automatically.
You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes
BobTank63
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by BobTank63 »

Unfortunately, there doesn't currently seem to be a way to set the ASW aircraft to use a certain buoy automatically.
thewood1
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by thewood1 »

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5082195

Its been discussed at least a couple times before.

Also, I tend not to use areas for ASW patrols. I've had better luck creating a grid pattern of reference points and assigning a loop patrol. It gives a more predictable way of making sure at least a passive or active SB ends up within a certain area. I've had better luck with that method than areas. It can clutter the screen a little.
You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes
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CV60
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by CV60 »

ORIGINAL: goldfinger35

ORIGINAL: thewood1

From the hotkey list:

Shift + [ Drop Passive Sonobuoy, Shallow - Over Layer
[ Drop Passive Sonobuoy, Deep - Under Layer
Shift + ] Drop Active Sonobuoy, Shallow - Over Layer
] Drop Active Sonobuoy, Deep - Under Layer

And Pg 68 in the manual:

"4.1.2 ASW-specific Actions:
Drop Passive Sonobuoy: If the aircraft has sonobuoys in its
inventory, it drops it. Sonobuoys can be dropped above or
below the thermal layer (see 9.2.3, Submarine Combat). Passive
sonobuoys are the main source of anti-submarine warfare.

Drop Active Sonobuoy: This drops a sonobuoy that actively
pings. As the submarine will know it’s being watched, active
sonobuoys are traditionally used only to pinpoint the exact
location of an already-detected contact prior to an attack.

Deploy Dipping Sonar: If the aircraft is a helicopter with a
dipping sonar, it stops, hovers low, and deploys it.
Function key functions: Allow you to call on unit level functions.
See the shortcut bar, “Buttons and Windows” for more information."

I know about manual method, but manually searching for subs (dropping buoys) in 48h mission is no fun.


IMHO, (and Unfortunately), for modern diesel boats you will have to manually lay a pattern to get something reasonably efficient. This is because the range of a sonobuoy v. a particular SSK will vary depending on the quietness of the target, the noise environment, and whether the target is above/below the layer. CMO doesn't automatically figure out the average detection range of a sonobuoy and then calculate spacing and type. For VP ops, I usually designate an patrol area and manually help the VP lay the buoy pattern, using my knowledge and experience in CMO to determine spacing and type of buoy. In general, in CMO if I don't know what depth the sub is at, for a modern SSK I do a pattern with about 1.5 nm spacing with a shallow-Shallow-Deep pattern. If I think I may have in idea of where the sub is, I drop an active buoy. If I want to drive the sub either to, or away from an area, I will drop an active buoy positioned to help elicit the desired behavior. Sometimes, when you do this, the sub will increase speed and be picked up by your passive buoys.

While it is a bit of a pain to micro-manage the pattern, once you have it deployed, it is just a matter of monitoring it. You can also keep your surface search radar on to keep the sub from going to periscope depth. One thing: don't expect results quickly. ASW is "Awfully Slow Warfare". The buoy pattern merely sets up a barrier that maximizes your chance of the SSK passing near enough a buoy to get a detection. That frequently takes a lot of time.

FYI, you will burn through buoys doing this. However, this is realistic. One thing to keep in mind regarding ASW. You don't have to kill the sub to win. You only have to prevent him from killing you. If you can hold down a SSK and prevent him from maneuvering to get a shot on your HVU, you win.
“Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?” -Abraham Lincoln
thewood1
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by thewood1 »

When I create a loop with modern SBs, I noted that they are placed 7-9 nm apart. I use that to keep build my grid pattern. I adjust that based on the SB range of the units I'm working with. IIRC, the AI won't place new SBs over working SBs in the loop. That saves SBs. I'll have to doublecheck that.
You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes
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Primarchx
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by Primarchx »

When in doubt just fire a Ltwt torp on a bearing-only attack and see if it stirs anything up! [:D]

After all, how many torps did the RN fire during the Falklands war and how many subs did they hit with them? [semi-serious]
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goldfinger35
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by goldfinger35 »

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

When in doubt just fire a Ltwt torp on a bearing-only attack and see if it stirs anything up! [:D]

After all, how many torps did the RN fire during the Falklands war and how many subs did they hit with them? [semi-serious]

Yes, I had that idea yesterday while trying the best solution. I will experiment with that.






Out of desperation, I made a 3-layer defense:
-MPA plane dropping buoys 60nm from my ships in square area
-Helo in loop line dropping buoys 50nm from ships
-Helo dropping buoys 30nm from my ships in square area

and yet still Kilo at cruise squeezes through all defenses undetected [X(]


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goldfinger35
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by goldfinger35 »

After some testing, I have concluded that plane drops active/passive/shallow/below buoys +-9nm apart and in order to detect electro cruise sub active or passive buoy has to be +-2.5 nm (but at correct height) so chances are pretty slim it will detect sub.
I have marked in red shallow buoys and range at which they can detect electro cruise sub at shallow.


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thewood1
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by thewood1 »

As I said above, I already tested that SBs are 7-9 nm apart. When I need a tighter grouping, I use the loop patrol with reference points in a tight grid. There are still gaps here and there based on how how you build it, but you can adjust it on the fly.
You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes
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SeaQueen
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by SeaQueen »

I like the way you're arranging things along the limiting lines of approach. Very snazzy. Pro move.
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SeaQueen
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by SeaQueen »

ORIGINAL: goldfinger35
After some testing, I have concluded that plane drops active/passive/shallow/below buoys +-9nm apart and in order to detect electro cruise sub active or passive buoy has to be +-2.5 nm (but at correct height) so chances are pretty slim it will detect sub.

Well.. 2.5NM suggests you need a lot more sonobuoys or maybe you just need to arrange them better. It's not impossible that you'll detect them, but depending on how they're arranged might be more or less likely. At best the effort would demand a lot of time. Think about it this way, though:

Suppose you had 10 sonobuoys, each of which could detect a submarine at 2.5NM. You can lay them with no overlapping (spaced 5NM apart) in a straight line 50NM long and detect every single submarine which tried to cross that line. Suppose I wanted to stretch it, and do a little wider? I could go as far as ~56NM and still detect ~90% of the submarines that tried to cross the line.

Does that influence your thinking about how to approach the problem?
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goldfinger35
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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys?

Post by goldfinger35 »

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen
ORIGINAL: goldfinger35
After some testing, I have concluded that plane drops active/passive/shallow/below buoys +-9nm apart and in order to detect electro cruise sub active or passive buoy has to be +-2.5 nm (but at correct height) so chances are pretty slim it will detect sub.

Well.. 2.5NM suggests you need a lot more sonobuoys or maybe you just need to arrange them better. It's not impossible that you'll detect them, but depending on how they're arranged might be more or less likely. At best the effort would demand a lot of time. Think about it this way, though:

Suppose you had 10 sonobuoys, each of which could detect a submarine at 2.5NM. You can lay them with no overlapping (spaced 5NM apart) in a straight line 50NM long and detect every single submarine which tried to cross that line. Suppose I wanted to stretch it, and do a little wider? I could go as far as ~56NM and still detect ~90% of the submarines that tried to cross the line.

Does that influence your thinking about how to approach the problem?


Yes, buoys (at correct depth, usually shallow) 5nm apart for 50nm would be a winning strategy and that is what I have to do manually because helo/plane on ASW patrol mission will drop them shallow/deep 9nm apart a that gives us minimal chance of detection. Manual is fine for small missions but for large missions with many units [:-]
I know it was mentioned in other posts over time, but solution would be options in ASW patrol mission:
-drop only shallow or only deep or combination
-spaced apart xy nm
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