Surprise surprise

[davidc]

Jan-Feb 1940
Italy declare war on France and CW
Italy attack Nice
Z1007 flies ground support with 3 factors doubled to 6
Germany decides to help out and flies He111 with 3 factors on extended range which gets doubled to 3?

[davidc]

.

[davidc]

Save

[Joseignacio]

FYI, extended range divides power by 2. So you get (3 + 1,5)x2 =9

[Courtenay]

There is a bug here. The German plane should not get a surprise bonus, so should contribute 3/2 = 1.5, rounded up to 2, so the total air should be 8, not 9.

(Wow, those colors are confusing.)

[Joseignacio]

Right.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

There is a bug here. The German plane should not get a surprise bonus, so should contribute 3/2 = 1.5, rounded up to 2, so the total air should be 8, not 9.

(Wow, those colors are confusing.)

Even worse. By flying the German plane there is no Italian surprise. Should be 4.5 added.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

There is a bug here. The German plane should not get a surprise bonus, so should contribute 3/2 = 1.5, rounded up to 2, so the total air should be 8, not 9.

(Wow, those colors are confusing.)

Even worse. By flying the German plane there is no Italian surprise. Should be 4.5 added.

Is that so? never heard that before.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

There is a bug here. The German plane should not get a surprise bonus, so should contribute 3/2 = 1.5, rounded up to 2, so the total air should be 8, not 9.

(Wow, those colors are confusing.)

Even worse. By flying the German plane there is no Italian surprise. Should be 4.5 added.

Is that so? never heard that before.

RAW:

Bombers controlled by a major power declaring war, double their
ground support factors (see 11.16.4) if the only land units in the target
hex are surprised units.

So the Italian bombers are doubled, the German ones are not. And if the defender intercepts, only German bombers can be attacked by them. Italian ones are automatically cleared through in that case.

[davidc]

Finally Centuur, someone who can read the rules.
That is what the issue is.

[paulderynck]

Yeah - or just read the first paragraph of the rule - works too.

"Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with."

You cannot be surprised and not surprised at the same time. Flying the German bomber means the Italians do not get surprise effects because the defender is not surprised.

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Yeah - or just read the first paragraph of the rule - works too.

"Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with."

You cannot be surprised and not surprised at the same time. Flying the German bomber means the Italians do not get surprise effects because the defender is not surprised.

Paul, you read this rule differently than I do. I see no reason why you can not be surprised and not surprised at the same time.

I play that the Italians get surprise benefits, the Germans don't. The presence of the German plane means that interception of the attacking aircraft is legal, though, involving all Axis planes. Also, in a naval combat the presence of a non-surprising enemy unit means you aren't surprised.

This question is not asked in my copy of the FAQ.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Yeah - or just read the first paragraph of the rule - works too.

"Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with."

You cannot be surprised and not surprised at the same time. Flying the German bomber means the Italians do not get surprise effects because the defender is not surprised.

Paul, you read this rule differently than I do. I see no reason why you can not be surprised and not surprised at the same time.

I play that the Italians get surprise benefits, the Germans don't. The presence of the German plane means that interception of the attacking aircraft is legal, though, involving all Axis planes. Also, in a naval combat the presence of a non-surprising enemy unit means you aren't surprised.

This question is not asked in my copy of the FAQ.

I read that sentence too. If you read this exactly how it's stated, it means that only units of the major power which DoW'ed this impulse get any benefits.
In the rules or the FAQ there is no mentioning of any restriction for ground support by aircraft of the DoW'ing major power if there are other major power bombers included in that attack. Therefore, in the example, any Italian bomber has to be automatically cleared through and will be doubled during ground support. It doesn't matter if there are German ones added too.

In RAW section 15, you can't find any rule which says you cannot be surprised and not surprised at the same time. On the contrary: you can! If a combined stack of Italian and German units attack in this example across a river, the Italian one isn't halved and the German one is. However, in such a case the defending player can add ground support...

[paulderynck]

Q: Why can he add ground support if he's surprised? A: Ahh, because he's surprised but he's not surprised all at the same time. Amazing.

It states in the rules there is no surprise if a unit (that otherwise would get a surprise benefit) overflies hexes controlled by a country the victim is already at war with.

Does it make any sense that the victim knows not to be surprised in that case and yet is surprised in the situations you describe?

Knowing the path of surprising aircraft is more obvious than being attacked by units you are already at war with????

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It states in the rules there is no surprise if a unit (that otherwise would get a surprise benefit) overflies hexes controlled by a country the victim is already at war with.

Agreed. But the Italian plane flies from Italy to France to deliver it's bombs (see the picture in the first post). So it gets the benefits of surprise.

[paulderynck]

Here is another rather infamous situation. Early game, Italy declares war on France only. CW prepare to do a surprise DoW ala Pearl Harbour attack on the Italian fleet, but in the meantime a German sub has gone to sea and returned to same major port where Italy has its fleet. Italy now ignores the CW surprise potential because if the CW port strikes, the Axis will simply announce the German sub is included (after all what hero would hide in a bomb proof sub pen?) and surprise, surprise; there ain't no surprise when the CW port strikes.

So tell me - why is surprise negated when the defending force includes units already at war but not negated when the attacking force does??

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Here is another rather infamous situation. Early game, Italy declares war on France only. CW prepare to do a surprise DoW ala Pearl Harbour attack on the Italian fleet, but in the meantime a German sub has gone to sea and returned to same major port where Italy has its fleet. Italy now ignores the CW surprise potential because if the CW port strikes, the Axis will simply announce the German sub is included (after all what hero would hide in a bomb proof sub pen?) and surprise, surprise; there ain't no surprise when the CW port strikes.

So tell me - why is surprise negated when the defending force includes units already at war but not negated when the attacking force does??

I don't know. Designer choice, I guess? An oversight by the designer, possibly? To put it bluntly: it's not stated in RAW...

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Here is another rather infamous situation. Early game, Italy declares war on France only. CW prepare to do a surprise DoW ala Pearl Harbour attack on the Italian fleet, but in the meantime a German sub has gone to sea and returned to same major port where Italy has its fleet. Italy now ignores the CW surprise potential because if the CW port strikes, the Axis will simply announce the German sub is included (after all what hero would hide in a bomb proof sub pen?) and surprise, surprise; there ain't no surprise when the CW port strikes.

So tell me - why is surprise negated when the defending force includes units already at war but not negated when the attacking force does??

I don't know. Designer choice, I guess? An oversight by the designer, possibly? To put it bluntly: it's not stated in RAW...

For a naval battle, surprise is negated for both the attacker and defender. That is clear:

NAVAL UNITS
If a port attack or a naval combat at sea only involves units controlled by major powers declaring war, and the major powers they are declaring war on, the surprised units always get 0 surprise points.

The question here, however, involves land units, and is not addressed in RAW. Clearly different people have read this rule differently.

If someone really wants to, they can ask ADG.

[paulderynck]

Someone did and hence the first paragraph of Surprise in the newest rules (CE) now reads: "Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a country they are currently at war with even if they attack in conjunction with units from a major power that has just declared war on them."

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Someone did and hence the first paragraph of Surprise in the newest rules (CE) now reads: "Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a country they are currently at war with even if they attack in conjunction with units from a major power that has just declared war on them."

But MWIF isn't based on CE, so RAW7 should take preference, IMHO.