Italy declare war on France and CW
Italy attack Nice
Z1007 flies ground support with 3 factors doubled to 6
Germany decides to help out and flies He111 with 3 factors on extended range which gets doubled to 3?

Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets
Even worse. By flying the German plane there is no Italian surprise. Should be 4.5 added.ORIGINAL: Courtenay
There is a bug here. The German plane should not get a surprise bonus, so should contribute 3/2 = 1.5, rounded up to 2, so the total air should be 8, not 9.
(Wow, those colors are confusing.)
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Even worse. By flying the German plane there is no Italian surprise. Should be 4.5 added.ORIGINAL: Courtenay
There is a bug here. The German plane should not get a surprise bonus, so should contribute 3/2 = 1.5, rounded up to 2, so the total air should be 8, not 9.
(Wow, those colors are confusing.)
ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Even worse. By flying the German plane there is no Italian surprise. Should be 4.5 added.ORIGINAL: Courtenay
There is a bug here. The German plane should not get a surprise bonus, so should contribute 3/2 = 1.5, rounded up to 2, so the total air should be 8, not 9.
(Wow, those colors are confusing.)
Is that so? never heard that before.
Paul, you read this rule differently than I do. I see no reason why you can not be surprised and not surprised at the same time.ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Yeah - or just read the first paragraph of the rule - works too.
"Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with."
You cannot be surprised and not surprised at the same time. Flying the German bomber means the Italians do not get surprise effects because the defender is not surprised.
ORIGINAL: Courtenay
Paul, you read this rule differently than I do. I see no reason why you can not be surprised and not surprised at the same time.ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Yeah - or just read the first paragraph of the rule - works too.
"Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with."
You cannot be surprised and not surprised at the same time. Flying the German bomber means the Italians do not get surprise effects because the defender is not surprised.
I play that the Italians get surprise benefits, the Germans don't. The presence of the German plane means that interception of the attacking aircraft is legal, though, involving all Axis planes. Also, in a naval combat the presence of a non-surprising enemy unit means you aren't surprised.
This question is not asked in my copy of the FAQ.
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
It states in the rules there is no surprise if a unit (that otherwise would get a surprise benefit) overflies hexes controlled by a country the victim is already at war with.
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Here is another rather infamous situation. Early game, Italy declares war on France only. CW prepare to do a surprise DoW ala Pearl Harbour attack on the Italian fleet, but in the meantime a German sub has gone to sea and returned to same major port where Italy has its fleet. Italy now ignores the CW surprise potential because if the CW port strikes, the Axis will simply announce the German sub is included (after all what hero would hide in a bomb proof sub pen?) and surprise, surprise; there ain't no surprise when the CW port strikes.
So tell me - why is surprise negated when the defending force includes units already at war but not negated when the attacking force does??
For a naval battle, surprise is negated for both the attacker and defender. That is clear:ORIGINAL: Centuur
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Here is another rather infamous situation. Early game, Italy declares war on France only. CW prepare to do a surprise DoW ala Pearl Harbour attack on the Italian fleet, but in the meantime a German sub has gone to sea and returned to same major port where Italy has its fleet. Italy now ignores the CW surprise potential because if the CW port strikes, the Axis will simply announce the German sub is included (after all what hero would hide in a bomb proof sub pen?) and surprise, surprise; there ain't no surprise when the CW port strikes.
So tell me - why is surprise negated when the defending force includes units already at war but not negated when the attacking force does??
I don't know. Designer choice, I guess? An oversight by the designer, possibly? To put it bluntly: it's not stated in RAW...
The question here, however, involves land units, and is not addressed in RAW. Clearly different people have read this rule differently.NAVAL UNITS
If a port attack or a naval combat at sea only involves units controlled by major powers declaring war, and the major powers they are declaring war on, the surprised units always get 0 surprise points.
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Someone did and hence the first paragraph of Surprise in the newest rules (CE) now reads: "Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a country they are currently at war with even if they attack in conjunction with units from a major power that has just declared war on them."