Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

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zgrssd
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Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by zgrssd »

So this response by Vic made me think:
ORIGINAL: Vic

Thanks! I think i improved the speed a bit in open beta .03 (just uploaded)

Its a LOT of Zones you have though!

Made me think about finding a way to allow merging Zones.

best wishes,
Vic

Currently, to my knowledge (never got around to actualy test it), if you found a city on a free folk town all the free folk automatically becomes part of your city.
So how about going in the opposite direction? Allowing us to turn our cities into free folk towns?
The whole idea is partially based on my idea for a Equadistant Start mechanic. There the history would simply handle population centers and only decide in the last step which one would become a ruin, free folk town, minor or major.

You would tell them to join another cities Zone, turning into a free folk town, transfering all the zone hexes (and thus assets) to that other zones, etc.
Some balance questions to consider:
- what happens with all the money spend on Private Assets? Should be be transfered?
- should there be a temporary bonus to free-folk migration if the city was already converted to your culture? Maybe even the whole population just migrating into the other city directly, only unconverted population staying as free folk?
- should it only work if you fully pacified the city? (to prevent it being a easy way out of unrest)
- what about existing Public Infrastructure? I asume it should stay
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BlueTemplar
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by BlueTemplar »

What currently happens if you try to do that via the "Expel Population" stratagem ?

fb.asp?m=5023476
ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar
ORIGINAL: zgrssd
You could allow us to turn Cities into Free Folk towns, dropping their zones.
Keeps the population around, removes them from the Zone tab.
This is *kind of* what the "Expel Population" stratagem (Interior Policies, but executed by the Staff Director with Operational Command) seems to be able to do ?

I'm going to have the opportunity to test it soon on an AI Village that doesn't seem to be worth keeping, even if I lose some Populace and Assets that way...

Now I already know that it kills population (populace, actually ?), but I also wonder about then losing the resulting Free Folks to migration to other regime's Zones ? Any idea how fast that can happen ?

Well, I guess that's also what the Forced Relocation and Attract Free Folk stratagems are for !
zgrssd
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

What currently happens if you try to do that via the "Expel Population" stratagem ?

fb.asp?m=5023476
ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar
ORIGINAL: zgrssd
You could allow us to turn Cities into Free Folk towns, dropping their zones.
Keeps the population around, removes them from the Zone tab.
This is *kind of* what the "Expel Population" stratagem (Interior Policies, but executed by the Staff Director with Operational Command) seems to be able to do ?

I'm going to have the opportunity to test it soon on an AI Village that doesn't seem to be worth keeping, even if I lose some Populace and Assets that way...

Now I already know that it kills population (populace, actually ?), but I also wonder about then losing the resulting Free Folks to migration to other regime's Zones ? Any idea how fast that can happen ?

Well, I guess that's also what the Forced Relocation and Attract Free Folk stratagems are for !
No amount of expelling population will remove the city from the Map and merge the land into a existing cities Zones.
The number of Zones does not change.
You move some pops from Population to Free Folk while reducing unrest - that is about it.

Changing - reducing - the number of zones what this is about.
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BlueTemplar
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by BlueTemplar »

Even to zero ?
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Even to zero ?
Yes, you could technically remove your last zone to defeat yourself.

But given how trivial it is to avoid that (requiring a Zone to merge with, Zone Count >= 2) I fail to see any chance for this to be an issue.
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BlueTemplar
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by BlueTemplar »

No - even reducing the populace to zero ? (Not your zones to zero !)
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

No - even reducing the populace to zero ? (Not your zones to zero !)
This discussion is about turning cities you own into free folk towns, conserving their population while also getting rid of the extra Zone.

No idea what you are talking about regarding "reducing cities to 0 population".
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BlueTemplar
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by BlueTemplar »

We're talking about pretty much the same thing : expelling the populace of a city so that they become free folks - and AFAIK they become free folks in the same zone (at least until they migrate away ?)

The only question is what happens to the city & zone itself after that.

(But I'll probably be able to test it out soon anyway.)
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

We're talking about pretty much the same thing : expelling the populace of a city so that they become free folks - and AFAIK they become free folks in the same zone (at least until they migrate away ?)

The only question is what happens to the city & zone itself after that.

(But I'll probably be able to test it out soon anyway.)
No mater how often you play Expell Population:
You still have the same City and Zone count. Just one Zone has less population and less unrest, making it less usefull in the short term.
You had X zones before. You have X zones after. The only change is the Population, Unrest and Free Folk counts of one zone.

I am talking about actually reducing the number of Zones/Cities the game has to process.
One City becomes a Free Folk town. All the city hexes (including the newly minted Free Folk Town) join another cities zone.
You had X Zones before. You have X-1 Zones after.
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BlueTemplar
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by BlueTemplar »

Damn. I heard that you could get rid of a zone by nuking its city until it was glowing, and was hoping you could do the same with Expel...
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Damn. I heard that you could get rid of a zone by nuking its city until it was glowing, and was hoping you could do the same with Expel...
Even if that was a thing (I have no information that this happens to cities), why spend hundreds of PP and dozens of turns doing that - as opposed to a single click on "downgrade to Free Folk Town"?
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newageofpower
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by newageofpower »

If a City has 0 pops and 0 structures it is removed next turn - tested via massive atomic spam. It's really impractical, however...
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BlueTemplar
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by BlueTemplar »

Hmm, I guess if *not* via nukes, then the private assets will automatically close down and disappear after some time ?
Even if that was a thing (I have no information that this happens to cities), why spend hundreds of PP and dozens of turns doing that - as opposed to a single click on "downgrade to Free Folk Town"?
Because you probably shouldn't be able to do this with a single click ?

It's one thing to fire all the workers and abandon all the public assets, but you're basically asking the private sector to just ... disappear. Why would you think that they would be willing to do so without either massive persuasion or forcibly kicking them out ? Why would you think this should be such an easy thing to do when you can't even currently order a park to close down in an existing city ?

Forcibly kicking them out, which Expel Population partially simulates, I didn't bring it up by random, since it has a similar effect to this suggestion, and therefore its balance should be taken into account :
- maybe a new stratagem is needed, one of them being more effective at quelling unrest, another at actually expelling population
- maybe that other new stratagem wouldn't even need a check against the army strength, but would be more expensive and/or harder in other ways, to parallel Forced Relocation and Attract Free Folk.
- or maybe Expel Population is already good enough
- or maybe it could be good enough for the role with some tweaking
but how would we know without even trying out the current Expel Population ?
- what about existing Public Infrastructure? I asume it should stay
I don't see how city-only assets could stay there ? Also with then the issue of multiple city-only assets in a single zone. I can already see the exploits coming up...
zgrssd
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by zgrssd »

It's one thing to fire all the workers and abandon all the public assets, but you're basically asking the private sector to just ... disappear. Why would you think that they would be willing to do so without either massive persuasion or forcibly kicking them out ? Why would you think this should be such an easy thing to do when you can't even currently order a park to close down in an existing city ?
Just because it is not simulated in detail, does not mean it does not exist.
Of course free folk towns have private industry to feed the free folk.

But it is so far below your ability to tax, it does not mater.
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Fritz1776
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by Fritz1776 »

This is a great idea. All I ask is that it be accompanied by the ability to relocate your capital, since having an awkwardly positioned one would make such drawdowns annoying.
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: Fritz1776

This is a great idea. All I ask is that it be accompanied by the ability to relocate your capital, since having an awkwardly positioned one would make such drawdowns annoying.
The capitol is not actually the center of your civilisation. The position of your 1st (and hopefully only) SHQ is. And SHQ's can be relocated.
There is also only one unique building and that one only needs worker sand power. You want to be able to feed such a large population locally anyway - so the only resources the Capitol would need to import are water and energy, which travel for free.
DW2 Poll:
"Should the Civil and non-Combat Ships loose all or most of their weapon slots?"
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Fritz1776
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by Fritz1776 »

While you are correct about the SHQ, the capitol building is still a thing, and the ability to relocate it is a necessity, seeing as if you lose it basically all your leaders die.
zgrssd
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: Fritz1776

While you are correct about the SHQ, the capitol building is still a thing, and the ability to relocate it is a necessity, seeing as if you lose it basically all your leaders die.
I totally did not consider the Leader Safety. Somehow I thought the Leaders would also be stored in the SHQ, but it does make more sense for them to be in the City.
DW2 Poll:
"Should the Civil and non-Combat Ships loose all or most of their weapon slots?"
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BlueTemplar
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by BlueTemplar »

I haven't tried closing down my High Command asset. Maybe if you don't have one left, you can already build another one in any city you want, and it becomes your Capital ?

(Of course this is probably NOT fast enough if your Capital is threatened ?)
zgrssd
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RE: Ideas for Merging/dropping zones

Post by zgrssd »

So we need a way to move the Capital, and propably should exclude Capital Cities from the disbanding of the cities.
DW2 Poll:
"Should the Civil and non-Combat Ships loose all or most of their weapon slots?"
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=382690
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