Aircraft on AAW Patrol missions dropping contacts

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Figeac
Posts: 77
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:07 pm

Aircraft on AAW Patrol missions dropping contacts

Post by Figeac »

Hi,

I dont know if this is a bug or wad, but I noticed that when my aircrafts are assigned to an AAW Patrol mission with the "investigate unknwon contacts outside the patrol area" checked and no prosecution area, they keep auto dropping air contacts.

Looks like they set up a contact as their primary target and starts the chase (engaged offensive) but after a while, the target lose its "primary target" status and my aircraft starts to follow the plotted course, until they aquire the same target as primary again, start the chase, drop again, and so on. Its irrelevant whether the contact is really unknown or already marked as hostile.

I attached a save file where I tried to reproduce the issue. Tried to do the same with the "investigate unknown contacts within weapon range" but quite frankly I dont know how exactly this feature works so far.

Thanks!
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Figeac
Posts: 77
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:07 pm

RE: Aircraft on AAW Patrol missions dropping contacts

Post by Figeac »

Guess it's WAD, so?
thewood1
Posts: 6823
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:24 pm

RE: Aircraft on AAW Patrol missions dropping contacts

Post by thewood1 »

Try a little patience.
You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes
boogabooga
Posts: 512
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:05 am

RE: Aircraft on AAW Patrol missions dropping contacts

Post by boogabooga »

There is a parameter in the patrol missions called "Attack dist." You don't have that set. If you set it to 200nm or however far away those A/C are, then your Typhoons will engage, no problem. It seems that whatever the default is, it is closer than those contacts. Then you get that sort of paranoid, jittery behavior that you describe. It might be useful though, since they keep pinging those contacts with radar, etc.

For totally chill patrol aircraft that almost completely ignore contacts that they are not engaging, use prosecution zones.
The boogabooga doctrine for CMO: Any intentional human intervention needs to be able to completely and reliably over-ride anything that the AI is doing at any time.
Figeac
Posts: 77
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:07 pm

RE: Aircraft on AAW Patrol missions dropping contacts

Post by Figeac »

Dear boogabooga, I think that this "attack distance" parameter that you have mentioned exists only for strike missions, not for patrol missions.

For patrol missions, there are only the "investigate unknwon contacts outside the patrol area" and the "investigate unknown contacts within weapon range" options, but when you check it, the aircrafts only goes a few miles outside the patrol zone to investigate a target, then ignores it, comes back to patrol zone, acquire it again, ignore it again and so on.

I think that the devs have putted a limit to the distance a plataform can goes from its original patrol zone to investigate contacts outside it, and when they reach it, they come back. But a few moments later, they start the process again.
Eggstor
Posts: 353
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:04 pm

RE: Aircraft on AAW Patrol missions dropping contacts

Post by Eggstor »

It is pretty much a WAD. If you set "Investigate unknown contacts outside the patrol area" without setting up a prosecution zone, the unit(s) assigned will attempt to investigate unknown contacts and intercept unfriendly/hostile contacts that the AI thinks the unit(s) can reach before reaching bingo fuel, and drop the intercept if the AI thinks it can't reach the contact before reaching bingo fuel. This behavior will cycle as the calculated intercept point changes between within and outside of range.

It can be short-circuited by manually marking the contact as either neutral or friendly, even if it has already been identified as an unfriendly or hostile contact.

As for the "Investigate unknown contacts within weapons range" option, it effectively sets up a prosecution zone that extends out from the patrol zone to the range of the longest-ranged weapon of that mission type. In your test scenario, it would be 75 nm for the Typhoons on side 1 (the range on the Meteor) and 45 nm for the Rafales on side 2 (the range on the MICA). Once an unknown/unfriendly/hostile target gets within 75 nm of the Typhoons' patrol zone or 45 nm of the Rafales' patrol zone, they'll attempt an intercept as long as the contact remains within 75/45 nm of their respective patrol zones.

If both boxes are checked and no prosecution zone is created, the weapons-range box is ignored. I'm not sure what happens if both boxes are checked and a prosecution zone is created.
KnightHawk75
Posts: 1552
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:24 pm

RE: Aircraft on AAW Patrol missions dropping contacts

Post by KnightHawk75 »

"As for the "Investigate unknown contacts within weapons range" option, it effectively sets up a prosecution zone that extends out from the patrol zone to the range of the longest-ranged weapon of that mission type."
---
This is what you would think happens, but it's not what happens. In fact it ignores PZ's and PS'Z entirely when both are checked, it's based on 2x weapon range from the aircraft with the weapon, if posture is unknown or just the normal range if known. See details below.
In your test scenario, it would be 75 nm for the Typhoons on side 1 (the range on the Meteor) and 45 nm for the Rafales on side 2 (the range on the MICA).
It would be 150nm for the Typhoons, and 90nm for the Rafales for Unknown contacts, based on distance from unit not PZ or PSZ.
It would be 75nm for the Typhoons, and 45nm for the Rafales if hostile, and it would be based on distance from unit not PZ or PSZ.
It would be 75nm for the Typhoons, and 45nm for the Rafales if ROE is free-fire, based on distance from unit not PZ or PSZ.
They would be ignored if already classified unfriendly,friendly, or neutral, and ROE is tight or hold, and not otherwise manually told to engage.
" I'm not sure what happens if both boxes are checked and a prosecution zone is created. "
---
PS\PSZ are overridden when both are checked and anything unknown is with-in 2x max weapon range (no matter if it's inside the psz or not).

Lets look at this in detail.
[x] investigate unknown contacts outside the patrol area. AKA ignore my PZ and my PSZ.
[x] investigate unknown contacts within weapons range. AKA no matter what investigate stuff in 2x weapons range
What will happen is as follows.
If contact is 2x max weapons range and all other things being equal (ie enough fuel etc), it will leave the patrol zone, and engage the target until such time as the target is side ID'd (or otherwise identified beyond unknown), and or if hostile, destroyed, is already engaged by max number of units that is not itself according to classification at that time, or range to contact _exceeds_ 2x remaining max weapons weapons range. That assumes Winchester-MissionSpecific situation, obviously another weapon state could also break the engagement earlier. It also assumes the contact stays outside both the patrol zone and the defined prosecution zone. If there are multiple it tends to start with the closest as Pri, but tends to pick a heading between them.
IF identified hostile during the above, AND the unit is actually inside weapon's range, AND weapons are not hold, then it will continue to engage and open fire according to WRA.

If the unit say strays and it's already outside the PZ\PSZ for whatever reason it will still apply the 2x Weapon range logic, think of the 'within weapon range' as a complete override regardless of location. For instance using it can cause a daisy chaining effect if not careful, follows someone way outside PZ to id it, id's it, along the way another unknown comes into 2x weapon range...runs off to id it.. and so on.

Lets look at some screen shots to highlight most of these settings and what happens (click for full image). Build 11470.29

Figure #1: Col Tanner's f-15CX is inside his patrol area (PZ), there is a prosecution zone (PSZ). There is an unknown Bogey #9 contact @ ~175nm, Tanner has AIM-120D's with maxrange 75nm, 2x that is 150nm. Tanner will not engage, because contact is not inside the PZ nor PSZ, and not within-2x max weapon range.
Image

Figure #2: Nothing else has changed except, Col Tanner's f-15CX has been moved, it is now ~149.nm ( =< 150nm ) from Bogey #9, he is now engaging to investigate, that the bogey is outside the PSZ is of no concern. The fact that Tanner happens to be inside his PZ in this example doesn't matter, he would engage regardless no matter where he was with-in <150nm of contact.
Image

Figure #3: Example of him engaging Bogey #10 regardless of location due to double check boxes when weapons override applies.
Image

Figure #4: Tanner placed back at ~175nm BUT with Aim-260's on board making the new investigate range cap ~240nm so he is now engaging.
Image

Figure #5: Tanner at ~63nm BUT with ONLY Aim-9x's on board making the new investigate range cap ~24nm, breaks/no engagement.
Image

Note: If not already clear 2x the weapon range is used only when it's an unknown contact, not once identified.
Figure #6: Bogey #9 flagged hostile, Tanner not yet in plain weapons range, Bogey is not inside PZ\PSZ, Tanner ignores target as directed for now, does not engage,heads toward patrol area.
Image

few more just for more completeness..
Figure #7: Just sample showing Number of a/c that investigate unknown contacts in play: Tanner is closer, but Masters already snagged the job.
Image

Figure #8: If nothing changes, Masters will run out of fuel while chasing to id Bogey #10, the 143nm gap will never be closed if they're both going 480kts in the same direction. This example could be a decent case for 'enable active emission only inside patrol area', depending on scene, as eventually the contact would exceed that of the land radars and time-out.
Image

Figure #9: Col Masters inside his PZ, with a PSZ set, and set to not ignore those. However Weapon's range for unknown contacts IS enabled, so PZ's ignored. Note the ranges, it's 2x weapon range from unit, PZ\PSZ ranges have nothing to do with the calculation here as illustrated.
Image

More to help illustrate how these settings work when dealing with various combos of settings and unknown contacts.
Figure #10: No check boxes set, PZ and PSZ exist, contact is unknown and outside both. No engagement.
Image

Figure #11: No check boxes set, PZ and PSZ exist, contact is unknown and outside both but inside weapons range (wpns tight\hold). No engagement.
Image

Figure #12: PS and PSZ exist, 'only [x]..outside patrol zone checked', (unit is inside PZ-notrelevant), contact is unknown and inside PSZ. contact engaged.
Image

Figure #13: PS and PSZ exist, 'only [x]..outside patrol zone checked', (unit is inside PSZ-notrelevant), contact is unknown and inside PSZ. contact engaged.
Image

Figure #14: PS and PSZ exist, 'only [x]..outside patrol zone checked', contact is unknown and now just outside PSZ. Masters has dis-engaged.
Image

Figure #15: NO PSZ exists, 'only [x]..outside patrol zone checked', contacts are unknown. Masters and Tanner engage all unknown targets no matter where they are if in fuel range.
Image

Figure #16: NO PSZ exists, 'Both outside patrol zone AND within weapons range checked', contacts are unknown. Masters and TAnner engage all unknown targets no matter where they are. Effectively in this instance (and I think in most without a PSZ) no different than just having the first checked.
Image

Figure #17: NO PSZ exists, 'only [x]..within weapons range checked', contacts are unknown. Masters engages unknown contact that is within 150nm of himself (2x75nm), Tanner has nobody in 2x wpn range.
Image

I think that this "attack distance" parameter that you have mentioned exists only for strike missions, not for patrol missions.
It's ignored when there is a PSZ, but not otherwise, though sometimes I've had to jiggle the setting in a manner of speaking to get it to take effect, by default or if entry removed it's not used.

Lua contact manipulation caveat:
- In build 1147.30 or below, if you via Lua mark a sides contact that was previously normally identified for posture, back to being unknown, it's seems it will not be re-investigated a second time, I believe because it's classification and or type fields don't get, and can't also be reset via lua, so if one needs it investigated again one must drop the contact, pretty sure that also applies to triggering detection events below the present classification ie they will not re-fire for those past levels.

If anyone wants to play with the very basic scene involved (I doubt it) I attached it in the state where the PZ and PSZ's exist, Talon sensors on each f-15 has been destroyed (feel free to restore just know it will make ID's at about ~100nm), and the aim-260s in VLS mounts on each aircraft were set to 0. Note the comments in the description about the refueling event if you will be testing that side of things. Att: TestRig_MissionAAWSettings.zip
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KnightHawk75
Posts: 1552
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:24 pm

RE: Aircraft on AAW Patrol missions dropping contacts

Post by KnightHawk75 »

boogabooga is right in the attached scene you have only a PZ, contacts that are already identified so the (unknown, part of the setting isn't going to apply once identified and no attack dist) hence them returning to CAP, so you have two primary options, like he said. Use a prosecution zone that includes where they are, or set an attack distance of something like 250nm with no PSZ, along with investigate contacts outside pz, the attack distance which will act as sort of it's own PSZ for a 250nm range around the aircraft.
Your scene with a PSZ in action:
Image
Your scene with Attack Dist in action at 200 (but I'd set it to 250 to cover range from your whole cap area), no PSZ:
Image
boogabooga
Posts: 512
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:05 am

RE: Aircraft on AAW Patrol missions dropping contacts

Post by boogabooga »

ORIGINAL: Figeac

Dear boogabooga, I think that this "attack distance" parameter that you have mentioned exists only for strike missions, not for patrol missions.

No, it's in the Speed/Alt Section on the lower right.


 
The boogabooga doctrine for CMO: Any intentional human intervention needs to be able to completely and reliably over-ride anything that the AI is doing at any time.
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