Japanese Unstoppable?

WarPlan Pacific is an operational level wargame which covers all the nations at war in the Pacific theatre from December 1941 to 1945 on a massive game scale.

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Numdydar
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by Numdydar »

ORIGINAL: YueJin

Sorry but how would giving Japan more starting oil change the non-realistic openings? They'd just rush even faster down the Solomon's after the turn 1 DEI surrender and be blockading Nomea and Fiji turn 4. With say, 100 extra oil turn 1 the Japanese could keep the combined fleet at sea supporting invasions and refuelling with oilers for most of 1942.

The AI scripts could be changed, obviously.

For PvP the easiest? solution is to keep the DEI neutral until Singapore falls. This would stop Japan rushing the DEI which they could not do until Singapore fell in the real war. It would also prevent the Allies from pilling in a bunch of stuff (also ahistorical). I assume a script could do this which is why I thought this would be the easiest method.
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incbob
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by incbob »

Most of the "18 months" stockpile comes from a meeting they had in October of 1941. It was based on the idea that the oil fields of the East Indies had to be taken by March.

In September 1941 Japan had 50 million barrels of oil and the IJN was using about 2,900 per HOUR. That is something over 2 million barrels a month.

Sounds like a lot, but.......

1) The 50 million barrels is not oil just for military use. It is TOTAL oil. Anything that needed oil came from that stockpile. An old woman heating her home, Yep. A chemical factory, Yep. The trains. Yep.

2) That also includes AV gas, ie fuel for planes. What a lot of people don't know is how little AV gas Japan started with. In fact, they wanted to make a last minute deal with the US to just keep the status quo. Part of their deal was to buy a certain amount of AV gas, not oil for the navy, AV gas for planes.

3) If they didn't use their planes, didn't use the IJN then they could last 18 months.


Japan did not just randomly pick Dec 7th. They picked Dec 7th because

1) They outnumbered the US fleet and new in the near future they wouldn't.

2) They knew it would take time to get any captured oil resources up and producing oil and they didn't want to cut it any closer.
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incbob
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by incbob »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
This would stop Japan rushing the DEI which they could not do until Singapore fell in the real war.

Where do you get this idea?

Japan attacked Singapore and one week later the Borneo. They only waited to attack the Netherland East Indie, not because they couldn't, but because they hoped to keep Netherlands neutral until they were finished with Singapore and Borneo.
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stjeand
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by stjeand »

IF DEI would remain neutral then add oil to the Japanese and all would be fine.


IF the DEI are at war with Japan then their units will get upgraded to be pretty strong against the Axis. Add to that the possibility that the Allies could reinforce the island. If Japan can't take it you can end the game there because they will be out of oil.

In WPE this was the All In France manuover...It is horrible for the game. I stopped many newer Axis players in France and beat them.


I say just play the game and see if it causes an issue the basic AI is not acceptable to use and say it does not work.


I mean in this game the Japanese could invade Hawaii on turn 3...is that historical? No...BUT I could do it...and if it fell they US would be in trouble.


So in reading the data that Numdydar provided...The Japanese appear to have had 3/4 of a year of oil stored up at the start of 1942.
I think the game lets them move a LOT more than they actually could so that changes things a bit...as the Japanese player can build more transports for oil which would be a WISE decision.

It may be a bit a historical but I am not sure it constitutes a huge issue with the game...guess you have to play to test.

I just started one and anyone else that wants to start one let me know. I will happily play the Allies and "lose" as everyone keeps saying.



BUT I can tell you...IF hindsight was 20/20 the Japanese WOULD have invaded the DEI first for oil alone, if they knew they were going to run out.


Easy to modify...add lots of oil to the Japanese and make a house rule to leave DEI alone until say March...See if that changes anything.
YueJin
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by YueJin »

I'm decently pleased with my position in the three Allied PBEM games I have going. The main problem I've seen most Allied players have is keeping the Indian front alive throughout 1942 as it can collapse in just a couple of turns if handled poorly. People likely need to adjust their expectations and plan to lose every VP hex in 1942 apart from Delhi, Sydney, Chungking, Chengtu, Kunming and the US West Coast against a good Japanese player. If the Japanese extend too far they should find themselves being cut off in late 1943 as long as a front hasn't disintegrated completely.
Numdydar
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by Numdydar »

ORIGINAL: incbob

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
This would stop Japan rushing the DEI which they could not do until Singapore fell in the real war.

Where do you get this idea?

Japan attacked Singapore and one week later the Borneo. They only waited to attack the Netherland East Indie, not because they couldn't, but because they hoped to keep Netherlands neutral until they were finished with Singapore and Borneo.

From here. Starting on page 28
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a202272.pdf



To secure the resources of South East Asia and to quickly destroy the military opposition of the United States and Great Britain, Japan developed four strategic options:1o (see oil map, page 10)

1. Seize the Netherlands Indies, then the Philippines and Malaya.

2. Advance methodically from the Philippines to Borneo, then Java, Sumatra. and finally Malaya.

3. Reverse the above course by starting with Malaya and ending with the Philippines, thus delaying an attack on American
territory until last.

4. Simultaneously attack the Philippines and Malaya, followed by converging attacks on the Indies.

The first plan was deemed unacceptable because it would expose Japanese forces and their lines of communication to attack from both the Philippines and Malaya. The Navy advocated the second plan. It would allow early seizure of US bases in the Philippines which sat astride lines of communication, and it would allow a cautious advance south, securing air and naval
bases from which to operate in each phase. The Army, however, said that Plan Two would allow the Allies to strengthen their
defenses in the Netherlands Indies and Malaya while Japan was fighting In the Philippines. The Army favored Plan Three. It
allowed the early seizure of critical resources and delayed attacks on American bases as much as possible. But, the Navy was
opposed to Plan Three, arguing that the risk of exposing their lines of communication to American naval and air forces was too great.

This left Plan Four, which called for simultaneous attacks against the Philippines and Malaya, followed by sweeps into the Indies from opposite directions. Although this plan would eliminate the US threat in the Philippines while placing Japanese forces in Sumatra. Java, and Borneo more quickly than Plan Two, it required a dispersion of forces, advance along two axes, and posed difficult coordination problems. But, it compromised the positions of the Army and Navy and was therefore adopted.

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incbob
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by incbob »

Thanks.

I thought you were talking about actualities, not plans.

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AlvaroSousa
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by AlvaroSousa »

This is my take so everyone understands.

If half the players are saying the oil situation is fine and half the players are complaining they are running out of oil, then the oil situation is balanced.... so far.

There is absolutely no way I can perfectly mimic the conditions on December 7th 1941 for the oil situation. There are so many variables to consider. So we start from history then design from there taking into account hindsight. Included is both sides managing their resources.

Just remember everyone this is FUN wargame based on history, not a historical recreation.
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Numdydar
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by Numdydar »

ORIGINAL: incbob

Thanks.

I thought you were talking about actualities, not plans.


I guess you did not see the section where it said

This left Plan Four, which called for simultaneous attacks against the Philippines and Malaya, followed by sweeps into the Indies from opposite directions. Although this plan would eliminate the US threat in the Philippines while placing Japanese forces in Sumatra. Java, and Borneo more quickly than Plan Two, it required a dispersion of forces, advance along two axes, and posed difficult coordination problems. But, it compromised the positions of the Army and Navy and was therefore adopted.


This WAS the plan the Japanese went with in 'actuality'.
Numdydar
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by Numdydar »

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

This is my take so everyone understands.

If half the players are saying the oil situation is fine and half the players are complaining they are running out of oil, then the oil situation is balanced.... so far.

There is absolutely no way I can perfectly mimic the conditions on December 7th 1941 for the oil situation. There are so many variables to consider. So we start from history then design from there taking into account hindsight. Included is both sides managing their resources.

Just remember everyone this is FUN wargame based on history, not a historical recreation.

I'm sorry but but a 'fun' wargame for me is you start with the actual historical data that you have to create the actual positions the opposing sides start with. Before any moves have been made. This has been completely ignored in this game with a '41 start. You might as well have dwarfs and elves running around as that could be 'fun' too.

Also the starting data is NOT based on history at all. Which is why I am constantly pointing it out.

You could have just looked at the data in War in the Pacific at the '41 start and converted the resource pools in that game to your system. But it looks like you completely ignored all the data available of what Japan had as resources to make a 'fun' game.

I'm sorry but that just does not cut it for me. The '41 start just has so many things wrong with it, I do not see it ever getting corrected since it appears that it would not make the game 'fun'.

I have played Japan a lot in WitP AE and I found the historical 'restrictions' on Japan's early moves to be a lot of 'fun'. But apparently you think Japan has to have massive ahistorical advantages in order for Japanese players to have 'fun'.

One suggestion would be to make a '41 historical start scenario and then have the current '41 scenario start be a Japan Fantasy start [:)]

One reason I am so harsh about all of this is I hate revisionist history and this game takes that to a new level with the '41 start as things stand now.
Edorf
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by Edorf »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

This is my take so everyone understands.

If half the players are saying the oil situation is fine and half the players are complaining they are running out of oil, then the oil situation is balanced.... so far.

There is absolutely no way I can perfectly mimic the conditions on December 7th 1941 for the oil situation. There are so many variables to consider. So we start from history then design from there taking into account hindsight. Included is both sides managing their resources.

Just remember everyone this is FUN wargame based on history, not a historical recreation.

I'm sorry but but a 'fun' wargame for me is you start with the actual historical data that you have to create the actual positions the opposing sides start with. Before any moves have been made. This has been completely ignored in this game with a '41 start. You might as well have dwarfs and elves running around as that could be 'fun' too.

Also the starting data is NOT based on history at all. Which is why I am constantly pointing it out.

You could have just looked at the data in War in the Pacific at the '41 start and converted the resource pools in that game to your system. But it looks like you completely ignored all the data available of what Japan had as resources to make a 'fun' game.

I'm sorry but that just does not cut it for me. The '41 start just has so many things wrong with it, I do not see it ever getting corrected since it appears that it would not make the game 'fun'.

I have played Japan a lot in WitP AE and I found the historical 'restrictions' on Japan's early moves to be a lot of 'fun'. But apparently you think Japan has to have massive ahistorical advantages in order for Japanese players to have 'fun'.

One suggestion would be to make a '41 historical start scenario and then have the current '41 scenario start be a Japan Fantasy start [:)]

One reason I am so harsh about all of this is I hate revisionist history and this game takes that to a new level with the '41 start as things stand now.

I agree to what Numdydar is pointing out here. To play a fantasy Pacific game is not what I personally would call fun because I am interested in actual WW2 history and would like to play the game in a historical fashion (as far as possible). If this is sacrificed the game could just as well be played on a random map with a Blue and Red team going against each other. So for the 41 start I hope we can get a historical scenario setup as well.
LeLiquid
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by LeLiquid »

"Revisionist history" ? Seriously ?

Guys, this is just game design choices. Don't forget it is a game. Not an history book.

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stjeand
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by stjeand »


I will say again...

We can create a "historical" scenario if that is what you want.


NO war game can or will ever be "historical" it can only start that way.


So I suggest...make a new thread and come up with the thoughts...

i.e.

Japan will have X oil which will last say a year...to do that you script that they get X oil per turn since they can not store that much.
Japan can not DW the DEI until X...this will have to be a house rule to start because you can not "move" units on the board.
Japan needs to wait till X to invade the Philippines.
US can not move units from that location.
Maybe "remove" some of Japans starting Landing craft and they receive some when it is time to invade the Philippines and DEI.
DEI an not "move" units


Start the thread and see if you can get a scenario more to your liking...and then test it.
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by Numdydar »

ORIGINAL: stjeand



NO war game can or will ever be "historical" it can only start that way.



That is my ENTIRE point. I want the game to START with historical data. I do not care about what happens when people start moving stuff around. But the '41 start data is so messed up that it throws the whole beginning of the game out of whack.

I am not sure why this is so hard to understand.
okeefe
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by okeefe »

You guys realize ships can teleport half way across the world in this game right?
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incbob
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by incbob »

ORIGINAL: okeefe
You guys realize ships can teleport half way across the world in this game right?

You realize that the Pearl Harbor Strike Force left Pearl on Nov 26 and attacked on Dec 7. They went a rough route, so as to not be noticed. They did not go top speed. So they went from Japan to Hawaii in 11 days going slow and taking their time.

A single turn is 14 days. So yeah, it makes sense that ships can go pretty far.
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stjeand
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by stjeand »

Teleport? No.

Move undetected? Yes. Basically out of range of Japanese eyes.

The US could travel to Australia in about 2 weeks...as could India to Australia.
At least from the research I could find...I could be wrong though.

Those are the only 2 points of "teleportation" as you so state.
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incbob
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by incbob »

1. I have still not seen any evidence that tells me Japan had oil to last them through to February given full fleet, army, and navy operations. Yes they had oil, but NOT for MILITARY. Civilians use oil as well and even late in the war they did not have the economy set up correctly. Show me some documentation that says the MILITARY has X amount of oil.

2. Did not do it, does not equal impossible. There are a number of things Japan did not do when they started WWII. That does not mean they could NOT do it. Could they, on Dec 7th or Dec 8th invaded the Netherlands East Indies, yes. It was their choice not to. If you think the player should be held to that choice then shouldn't the player be held ALL the choices the Japanese made?

3. Just because you read invasion date was this surrender date was this doesn't mean that is when fighting has to stop in the game. Just because Japan invaded a certain date does not mean they couldn't have invaded earlier and they couldn't have invaded later. As for surrender dates I have already pointed out that in most places the serious fighting was long over before the surrender. The Philippines and Singapore are perfect examples.


A Great example of how the game handles things is the BC Repulse and BB Prince of Wales. This game cannot put them out to sea to be attacked as they were due to the games scale. I think Alvaro came up with a great solution. Yes, the Japanese can sink them. Yes, the allies can possibly keep them for later use. Win, win.

I do not want a WW2 Pacific game where I HAVE to make the exact same decisions that were made. If you want that read a history book.What most people want is to be put in the place of the commanders be given the same options with the same consequences. Can Japan attack the NEI on the first turn, yes. Is it wise, no. Just like it was in real life.


-- Currently I am on January 4th in my Japan game. I am about to finish Malaya probably this turn. At most this is will be 2 weeks ahead.
-- I have invaded the NEI and have not touched Sumatra yet, because I haven't had units available to go there.
-- The Allies have reinforced the Philippines big time and I figure I will not be done with it for another couple of months 4 turns.
-- Going full bore, moving all my fleets I have about 1-2 turns oil.


This is against the AI on Excellent and Experienced. About right.



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tyronec
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by tyronec »

I am playing a couple of HvH games, '41 mirror match. We are both new to WPP but familiar with WPE.
We are up to turn 6, January '42. Indonesia has gone, Philippines have gone or are about to. In one game PNG has fallen, in the other it is about to. In one game India and Australia have been invaded, looks to me as if India will fall fairly easily, not sure if Australia can hold out as that last city looks tough to assault but expect it is possible.
Not sure what will happen in China but I guess once the weather clears up that Japan will be able to make progress and take all the low lying fruit.
So maybe by the end of '42 there will be African UK, Mainland US, NZ and a few bits and pieces left. Have no idea how well the Allies can come back from that, perhaps that is normal and they have every prospect of a win from there.
Is that the general sort of flow that other players are seeing for HvH games ?
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okeefe
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable?

Post by okeefe »

ORIGINAL: incbob
ORIGINAL: okeefe
You guys realize ships can teleport half way across the world in this game right?

You realize that the Pearl Harbor Strike Force left Pearl on Nov 26 and attacked on Dec 7. They went a rough route, so as to not be noticed. They did not go top speed. So they went from Japan to Hawaii in 11 days going slow and taking their time.

A single turn is 14 days. So yeah, it makes sense that ships can go pretty far.

Okay, there are US carriers sitting in pearl harbor on Dec 7th and half the time Arizona doesn't even get hit. So this is not 100% historical accurate big deal? An Airplane can fly from California to pearl harbor in 4-5 hours, and from Hawaii to midway is around the same, in 2 weeks you could get a lot done instead of sitting on an airstrip for months. I am fine with these design choices, if someone wants to make a realism mod go ahead. I heard something about japanese having oil for 6 months, but who really knows. If oil got really low im sure they would ration it out try and make the most of it.
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