QOL + Other General Suggestions

Moderator: Vic

Post Reply
Huon23
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:25 pm

QOL + Other General Suggestions

Post by Huon23 »

First off, just got the game in the recent sale and I am very much loving it! I see tons of potential in the future of the game. I've been thinking on it a lot lately too and just wanted to share some ideas that I think would make the game a bit better.

QOL Suggestions:

First off, one of the biggest problems I've seen around the forums and within the game is that QOL assets seem to be of pretty little impact to the development of the individual zones. Sure, they help to build the happiness of the zone, but once you have a handful set up and the private economy takes over, then you're pretty much done with them. No reason to keep upgrading or improving the QOL assets once your city reaches a relatively solid happiness level. But if this is a somewhat post-apocalyptic scenario, the act of building up your cities hospitals, police forces and civilian amenities ought to be one of the ways you can really pull ahead as you restore order to your particular planet!

My recommendation is to further tie in some of the QOL points with specific parts of the city. While they would continue to contribute to the civilization level and happiness of the city, as well as helping reduce unrest in the case of security QOL points, perhaps education, entertainment and health QOL could have specific roles. Entertainment could directly benefit the happiness of the population, I'd offer a rate of 1 point of happiness per turn per 300 points. Education assets would provide a direct benefit to worker happiness at the same rate. Healthcare assets would provide a direct benefit to population growth, at an additional 100 population per 250 points, so about a max increase of 200/300 per turn in a city with maxed out healthcare assets.

These changes would represent the fact that healthcare systems allow for more productive workers, keeping workers healthier and therefore able to work more. Entertainment would keep the general populace happier and less prone to revolution, as who has time for those when you need to go and spend your credits you earned at the private dome asset at the casino? The education changes would represent how better educated workers and supervisors are able to attain better work in the future through educating themselves.

Gameplay wise, it would give a player more reason to look at a city and figure out if they want to build that mine this turn, or instead make the early investment into a good hospital to get more workers in the future. While they would build both eventually, I always find wanting to get the build order most efficient in a city to be a lot of fun personally! Additionally, one of the problems I've run into during the lategame is that population really becomes difficult to grow if you don't have a cloning asset, so having the ability to spend resources on assets to raise it slightly would be quite helpful! (If implemented though, I would recommend an increase to the cost of healthcare QOL assets to compensate)

Were these changes to be made, I think it would also be really interesting if QOL points could go into the negatives, and cause direct harm to the values. While on its own it wouldn't add much, there could be fate cards that permanently modify a zones QOL. Perhaps a fate strategem will turn one of your zones into a healthcare hazard as you allow companies to dump off their toxic waste? Or a major slum develops, causing the security of the zone to be put at risk as it becomes a den of crime. Adding in these possibilites would allow the fate cards to be expanded a bit more than they currently are.

Private Economy Suggestions:

Although I've only played through to the end of about 6 games of Shadow Empire, another issue I've run into in the private economy is that after a certain point it seems to stop really growing at all. I suspect this may be due to prices being dead on certain resources, or it has no more buildings it can create, or the population cannot support a larger economy. I did a bit of a test in a game I'd already won, where I pumped about 800 credits per turn and used all the strategems I had in my possession to increase private investment in a single zone. Even at tens of thousands of private investment into a zone, it didn't seem to be able to do much with it. The only suggestion I can think of is perhaps adding in some method of once credits in the private economy reach level X, then a new type of "productivity increase" type of asset is created. Something to reward players who choose the path of commerce and internal development without there being as much of a hard stop as I've seen thus far. I do realize the focus is on warfare, but economic development can be just as rewarding to play out!

Prospecting:

Another minor suggestion I would make is to implement some way to keep prospecting possible or useful into the midgame. I think currently, even with only a minimal investment into it, you quickly find all the resources in your zones by turn 30 or 40. The only change I'd recommend is allowing prospecting to keep serving a purpose past this point. Something like being able to continue to find resources at significantly reduced rates (something like 1:256 or 1:512 per turn) or allowing it to occasionally replenish the amounts in mines or scavenger assets by a a few thousand every now and then. Not enough that it would be limitless mines, but enough that keeping a few points into prospecting may not be such a bad idea if you find yourself running low on resources.

Urban fighting:

So, one of the things I've noticed is that fighting in a town or city is virtually not all that distinguishable from fighting in the open plains. I think it would be great if city hexes, or perhaps any hex with X amount of assets, would be terraformed into a new terrain type titled "Urban", which would give defensive boosts, especially for infantry. I'd love to fight a science fiction version of Stalingrad! Additionally, perhaps this type of hex could offer economic bonuses or maluses to either incentivize or disincentivize players to concentrate their cities.

Tanks:

Currently, no matter which game I've had, the absolute best play is to just build tank divisions. They will just stomp through.. pretty much everything. In one game, I created a regiment of medium armor, threw on some unit strategems, and regardless of the odds it would face it came out on top. I think lone armor is just too effective currently. I don't think the individual stats of the tanks are the issues, but there should be perhaps some sort of negative modifier for pure tank attacks or defenses. An additional method could be increasing the oil upkeep of tanks, so they aren't something you can field en masse, but something you need to be careful with how you use them.

Defensive Fortifications:

I know the game is still being actively developed and this is just a future feature suggestion. I would love to see the ability to construct some sort of defensive fortifications in a hex. Something like trench systems, anti-aircraft guns, superheavy artillery, minefields, etc. To keep players from just making super fortress type cities, I would say certain fortifications cannot be built on city, ruins or urban hexes or within a certain number of hexes of them. I think this could add some additional depth to how you'd build your empire and guard your borders. Perhaps the minefields could act as a sort of dangerous terrain, where large formations would be at risk of taking casualties every time they go over the terrain, unless it's been properly cleared. Trenches could provide infantry, anti-tank guns and artillery with defensive boosts. Concrete fortresses could hold vital chokepoints, even if they'd require significant investment of industrial production to construct. Perhaps even the ability to setup observation bases around the map to keep an eye on the borderlands of the empire!

Modding:

Finally, I know Vic already allows for graphical mods and in the manual it was mentioned that a full blown editor a la Advanced Tactics Gold is not likely. I saw he mentioned in the forums about strategem and story modding possibilities in the future as well. I'm just throwing in an additional voice in support of modding! This game is rife with such possibilities, and I can only imagine the lifetime of this game extending far into the future if players could flex their creative talents as creating new units, buildings, events, strategems and more! Not to mention that this system is perfect for anyone wanting to fully convert it! I know personally as well that whilst I am loving the game thus far, I am beginning to come up against a sort of lack of content, such as seeing the same events or strategems over and over. I think modding can really be beneficial to increase the variety within a game and keep it fresh many times over.



All in all, thank you if you took the time to read through my suggestions! I just wanted to share my two cents about this game. I've found it to be nearly a masterpiece in all honesty. Even only five games in, there's something that grabs me about it and makes me want to keep coming back and playing it. Even when a situation has turned out poorly, or I get frustrated at the depth and complexity that's often befuddling, I just can't stop playing. So thank you for the game so far Vic and I know the continued development of this game is going to be something I keep an eye on!
zgrssd
Posts: 4198
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:02 pm

RE: QOL + Other General Suggestions

Post by zgrssd »

Some thoughts about this:
QOL Suggestions:

First off, one of the biggest problems I've seen around the forums and within the game is that QOL assets seem to be of pretty little impact to the development of the individual zones. Sure, they help to build the happiness of the zone, but once you have a handful set up and the private economy takes over, then you're pretty much done with them. No reason to keep upgrading or improving the QOL assets once your city reaches a relatively solid happiness level. But if this is a somewhat post-apocalyptic scenario, the act of building up your cities hospitals, police forces and civilian amenities ought to be one of the ways you can really pull ahead as you restore order to your particular planet!
Personally I usually want to keep the civilisation level low. I always found civilisation level more trouble then it is worth. So I wish there was a way to limit private QOL buildings.

Maybe we both could what we want?
What if the maximum QOL that Private Assets could provide was somehow capped by what Public assets of the type you run?
A simple hard cap. They still provide some QOL on their own, but the main purpose is to up the cap.
It would require you to invest into public stuff for higher QOL - and allows me to block of QOL development by not building the stuff.
Prospecting:

Another minor suggestion I would make is to implement some way to keep prospecting possible or useful into the midgame. I think currently, even with only a minimal investment into it, you quickly find all the resources in your zones by turn 30 or 40. The only change I'd recommend is allowing prospecting to keep serving a purpose past this point. Something like being able to continue to find resources at significantly reduced rates (something like 1:256 or 1:512 per turn) or allowing it to occasionally replenish the amounts in mines or scavenger assets by a a few thousand every now and then. Not enough that it would be limitless mines, but enough that keeping a few points into prospecting may not be such a bad idea if you find yourself running low on resources.
I can not take credit for the idea, but what if there were multiple levels of prospecting and mining - one for each accesibility level?

When looking at reserves for any resource here on earth, we usually first split the deposits into 2-3 price ranges, denoting their extraction&refinement cost.
It makes a huge difference if you can extract Uranium for <23 $/kg or only >230 $/kg!

The difficulty to access them could be worked into both prospecting and mining. It needs extra prospecting to find the lowest resources, and a higher tier mining asset to extract them.

Of course prospecting is a thing you can just fully turn off and you should get the infinite resource assets soon-ish. But maybe realy deep mines and deep propsecting could replace the infinite resource assets?
Urban fighting:

So, one of the things I've noticed is that fighting in a town or city is virtually not all that distinguishable from fighting in the open plains. I think it would be great if city hexes, or perhaps any hex with X amount of assets, would be terraformed into a new terrain type titled "Urban", which would give defensive boosts, especially for infantry. I'd love to fight a science fiction version of Stalingrad! Additionally, perhaps this type of hex could offer economic bonuses or maluses to either incentivize or disincentivize players to concentrate their cities.
The capitol cities (maybe all starting cities?) of all Mayor are in a ruin hex. While primarily there for the Scavenging assets, it does provide quite the defensive power.


Tanks:

Currently, no matter which game I've had, the absolute best play is to just build tank divisions. They will just stomp through.. pretty much everything. In one game, I created a regiment of medium armor, threw on some unit strategems, and regardless of the odds it would face it came out on top. I think lone armor is just too effective currently. I don't think the individual stats of the tanks are the issues, but there should be perhaps some sort of negative modifier for pure tank attacks or defenses. An additional method could be increasing the oil upkeep of tanks, so they aren't something you can field en masse, but something you need to be careful with how you use them.
Against minors I totally agree. Indeed recon buggies can slaughter them just as well (and are classed as tank for combat purposes).

But majors do know how to build RPG troops, Airforces, Anti-Tank guns, Tanks of their own, etc. So they should rule nearly as supreme against them. Nevermind hard terrain.
DW2 Poll:
"Should the Civil and non-Combat Ships loose all or most of their weapon slots?"
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=382690
Huon23
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:25 pm

RE: QOL + Other General Suggestions

Post by Huon23 »

I do agree on the civilization level usually being a bit of a pain, since all it seems to do is relate to happiness and QOL and often you are better off not trying to raise it too much. I wonder if there should be an effect when it comes to production of a zone as well? Assuming a civilized zone is one where the citizens aren't just scraping by in a radioactive ruin, it would make sense that maybe there could be a slight bonus to production the higher on the civilization level you go? Something like a 5% bonus at 50 civilization, and an additional 5% all the way up to 100 civilization for a nice 25% boost total if you can build and maintain the happiness of the population. It could make it worth it to put in the work to expand and civilize a zone then.

I do like the idea of there almost being a QOL cap of some sort, although I'm opposed to a hard cap in general. What if public QOL assets drained a small bit of BP every turn as part of their upkeep? So you'd really have to feel out how much of your government should be focused on the big departments versus making the lives of your people better off and thus more productive? If implemented well, I think it would add a lot of depth to how you perform the expand and exploit pieces of the 4X side of the game.

I don't know about the majors, though my only real wars against majors has been on regular difficulty, so maybe tank spam loses effectiveness the higher the difficulty level of the game. Still getting my feet wet in the game, so haven't tried punching up to that level.
User avatar
BlueTemplar
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:07 pm

RE: QOL + Other General Suggestions

Post by BlueTemplar »

once you have a handful set up and the private economy takes over, then you're pretty much done with them. No reason to keep upgrading or improving the QOL assets once your city reaches a relatively solid happiness level.
You still need to make sure to have enough QoL points when you level up your city if you don't want your QoL scores to drop like a rock !

But yeah, QoL interactions could be better...
I do agree on the civilization level usually being a bit of a pain, since all it seems to do is relate to happiness and QOL and often you are better off not trying to raise it too much.
There's also the "fate packs" and (supposedly?) new leaders getting better interpersonal skills ?
I wonder if there should be an effect when it comes to production of a zone as well? Assuming a civilized zone is one where the citizens aren't just scraping by in a radioactive ruin, it would make sense that maybe there could be a slight bonus to production the higher on the civilization level you go? Something like a 5% bonus at 50 civilization, and an additional 5% all the way up to 100 civilization for a nice 25% boost total if you can build and maintain the happiness of the population. It could make it worth it to put in the work to expand and civilize a zone then.
That's kind of already the case with asset levels, though only for Government Assets.
I do like the idea of there almost being a QOL cap of some sort, although I'm opposed to a hard cap in general. What if public QOL assets drained a small bit of BP every turn as part of their upkeep? So you'd really have to feel out how much of your government should be focused on the big departments versus making the lives of your people better off and thus more productive? If implemented well, I think it would add a lot of depth to how you perform the expand and exploit pieces of the 4X side of the game.
Hmm, there could be a relationship with the Service "Tax" ? (Which gives you extra BPs, as well as IPs and Credits.)

----
Even at tens of thousands of private investment into a zone, it didn't seem to be able to do much with it.
What was showing up in the details from the Population button ?

----
Prospecting:

Another minor suggestion I would make is to implement some way to keep prospecting possible or useful into the midgame. I think currently, even with only a minimal investment into it, you quickly find all the resources in your zones by turn 30 or 40.
If you aren't regularly expanding your territory, therefore opening new tiles up for prospecting, then you're probably doing something wrong/losing ?
From zgrssd :
I can not take credit for the idea, but what if there were multiple levels of prospecting and mining - one for each accesibility level?

When looking at reserves for any resource here on earth, we usually first split the deposits into 2-3 price ranges, denoting their extraction&refinement cost.
It makes a huge difference if you can extract Uranium for <23 $/kg or only >230 $/kg!

The difficulty to access them could be worked into both prospecting and mining. It needs extra prospecting to find the lowest resources, and a higher tier mining asset to extract them.

Of course prospecting is a thing you can just fully turn off and you should get the infinite resource assets soon-ish. But maybe realy deep mines and deep propsecting could replace the infinite resource assets?
Well, there's already an "Ease of mining" mechanic, but, yeah, it could be more fledged out, this is a great suggestion !

----
Urban fighting:

So, one of the things I've noticed is that fighting in a town or city is virtually not all that distinguishable from fighting in the open plains. I think it would be great if city hexes, or perhaps any hex with X amount of assets, would be terraformed into a new terrain type titled "Urban", which would give defensive boosts, especially for infantry. I'd love to fight a science fiction version of Stalingrad! Additionally, perhaps this type of hex could offer economic bonuses or maluses to either incentivize or disincentivize players to concentrate their cities.
In a simpler way, city tiles should probably quickly become "ruins" (if they don't already ?).

----
Tanks:

Currently, no matter which game I've had, the absolute best play is to just build tank divisions. They will just stomp through.. pretty much everything. In one game, I created a regiment of medium armor, threw on some unit strategems, and regardless of the odds it would face it came out on top. I think lone armor is just too effective currently. I don't think the individual stats of the tanks are the issues, but there should be perhaps some sort of negative modifier for pure tank attacks or defenses. An additional method could be increasing the oil upkeep of tanks, so they aren't something you can field en masse, but something you need to be careful with how you use them.
From zgrssd :
Against minors I totally agree. Indeed recon buggies can slaughter them just as well (and are classed as tank for combat purposes).

But majors do know how to build RPG troops, Airforces, Anti-Tank guns, Tanks of their own, etc. So they should rule nearly as supreme against them. Nevermind hard terrain.
This seems to be more of an issue with the AI not being able to properly counter-attack (since tanks don't get defensive bonuses, and even get maluses with some terrains and postures), which would require it to be good at reading the terrain and the tactical situation... which AFAIK is *really* hard to program in an AI ?
I don't know about the majors, though my only real wars against majors has been on regular difficulty, so maybe tank spam loses effectiveness the higher the difficulty level of the game. Still getting my feet wet in the game, so haven't tried punching up to that level.
Yeah, I'm only on my 2nd game, this time on Hard difficulty, here's hoping that this time the major(s) are less of a pushover than on the first game on Normal !

----
Defensive Fortifications:

I know the game is still being actively developed and this is just a future feature suggestion. I would love to see the ability to construct some sort of defensive fortifications in a hex. Something like trench systems, anti-aircraft guns, superheavy artillery, minefields, etc. To keep players from just making super fortress type cities, I would say certain fortifications cannot be built on city, ruins or urban hexes or within a certain number of hexes of them. I think this could add some additional depth to how you'd build your empire and guard your borders. Perhaps the minefields could act as a sort of dangerous terrain, where large formations would be at risk of taking casualties every time they go over the terrain, unless it's been properly cleared. Trenches could provide infantry, anti-tank guns and artillery with defensive boosts. Concrete fortresses could hold vital chokepoints, even if they'd require significant investment of industrial production to construct. Perhaps even the ability to setup observation bases around the map to keep an eye on the borderlands of the empire!
Well, most of this is already supposed to be simulated via the Entrenchment mechanic, but yeah, having it a bit more visual and under the direct control of the player could be nice !

----
Modding:
See this ongoing discussion :
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4972502
Post Reply

Return to “Suggestions and Feedback”