Road movement

A complete overhaul and re-development of Gary Grigsby's War in the East, with a focus on improvements to historical accuracy, realism, user interface and AI.

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Hanny
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Road movement

Post by Hanny »

In today’s manual is the road class and movement, in H DV 90 Vorersorgung des Felheers it uses a forumula, which includes road conditions, to calculate expected road movement, does the game generate the the same ratio, tons per mile, of movement rates as the Field Manual?..
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RedLancer
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RE: Road movement

Post by RedLancer »

Not directly, and for a number of reasons:

- Movement rules are not primarily set by supply and the document you quote is a Supply Manual.
- Trucks are a generic game abstraction as I have explained in response to a previous question you raised.
- I don't believe that the Soviets, Slovaks, Hungarians and Rumanians used the same metrics so the game uses a workable average for all nations.
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RE: Road movement

Post by Light4bettor »

Red,

If I may ask, curious to find out how pre-Barbarossa road quality and road network in Western Russia/ Soviet Occupied Belarus/Poland/Ukraine was determined? Using Soviet 1930s primary sources (say gov't studies), or the maybe the cartography work that was done by the Germans during the time they occupied the area?

Just want further my own research if you know. Thanks.
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RE: Road movement

Post by RedLancer »

I spent many hours reviewing contemporary maps with a good dose of what seemed right. It all boils down to a MP value in a hex set by weather and terrain.

I'll make the following observation - WitE2 is a game and we have tried to make things as historically sympathetic as the code allows. It uses 10 mile hexes and week long turns. I'm now waiting for someone to ask what the difference between Mud and Heavy Mud is in inches and did we consider the ratio of clay to sand in the Ukraine? When they do I'm sure the intent is to show they know more than we do. [;)]

Anyway here's an example of something I used:

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MAS
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RE: Road movement

Post by MAS »

ORIGINAL: RedLancer

I spent many hours reviewing contemporary maps with a good dose of what seemed right. It all boils down to a MP value in a hex set by weather and terrain.

I'll make the following observation - WitE2 is a game and we have tried to make things as historically sympathetic as the code allows. It uses 10 mile hexes and week long turns. I'm now waiting for someone to ask what the difference between Mud and Heavy Mud is in inches and did we consider the ratio of clay to sand in the Ukraine? When they do I'm sure the intent is to show they know more than we do. [;)]

Anyway here's an example of something I used:

Image
Ha! Pretty funny. :-) This is an amazing map! Are these all rail lines or a mix of rail and road? Can you briefly describe the difference between the double black lines, double red lines, think red lines, etc?

Thank you.
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RE: Road movement

Post by Light4bettor »

Thanks Red!,

For taking the time to show and respond. +1
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Hanny
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RE: Road movement

Post by Hanny »

ORIGINAL: RedLancer

Not directly, and for a number of reasons:

- Movement rules are not primarily set by supply and the document you quote is a Supply Manual.
- Trucks are a generic game abstraction as I have explained in response to a previous question you raised.
- I don't believe that the Soviets, Slovaks, Hungarians and Rumanians used the same metrics so the game uses a workable average for all nations.
FYI, you answered Henricks question, I did not ask a question.
Secondly the QM manual formula is generic, and is for any truck for any nation, driving any number of hours, as it calculates number of journeys, at ton capacity, average speed, number of Truck Coys, condition of road type.







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Light4bettor
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RE: Road movement

Post by Light4bettor »

MAS, maybe you saw it, but on the very bottom of the map, the legend is differentiating between primary and secondary roads (and between 1 lane and 2 lane at least). It doesn't say anything about rail lines(as far as I know), but in terms of roads, it's probably 1 lane roads and 2 lane roads, some secondary and some primary. My 2 cents.

Also, no doubt that some roads ran parallel to some rail lines in certain areas.

From my readings, I always assumed that the Minsk-Moscow highway was the best road in Russia, perhaps I may need to reassess.

Anyway the English translation I got for "Durchgangstrassen" is "thoroughfares", which I take to mean main primary roads; and "Strassen zwei (2.) Ordnung," translated- "second order roads" (secondary roads). Of course the best roads would be paved, so I'm gonna guess the black lines are the highest quality roads. (I'm just guessing though).

It looks like Model's 3rd Pz divison (XXIV Pz Korps) was somewhat following that good quality road through to Kirchev during the 1st 6 weeeks of Barbarossa. And I'm gonna deduce that Panzerstrasse 1 that is talked about in German documents is in fact that road (runs from Brest Litovsk through Kirchev and beyond).
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RE: Road movement

Post by Light4bettor »

accident repost
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RE: Road movement

Post by MAS »

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

MAS, maybe you saw it, but on the very bottom of the map, the legend is differentiating between primary and secondary roads (and between 1 lane and 2 lane at least). It doesn't say anything about rail lines(as far as I know), but in terms of roads, it's probably 1 lane roads and 2 lane roads, some secondary and some primary. My 2 cents.

Also, no doubt that some roads ran parallel to some rail lines in certain areas.

From my readings, I always assumed that the Minsk-Moscow highway was the best road in Russia, perhaps I may need to reassess.

Anyway the English translation I got for "Durchgangstrassen" is "thoroughfares", which I take to mean main primary roads; and "Strassen zwei (2.) Ordnung," translated- "second order roads" (secondary roads). Of course the best roads would be paved, so I'm gonna guess the black lines are the highest quality roads. (I'm just guessing though).

It looks like Model's 3rd Pz divison (XXIV Pz Korps) was somewhat following that good quality road through to Kirchev during the 1st 6 weeeks of Barbarossa. And I'm gonna deduce that Panzerstrasse 1 that is talked about in German documents is in fact that road (runs from Brest Litovsk through Kirchev and beyond).

I was thinking the same thing re: the 'best road' as Minsk-Moscow. It appears to be Brest-Bobruisk-Moscow, or Panzerstrasse 1 as you point out. On the other hand I've come across many mentions by the Germans that they had really poor maps that sometimes showed roads where none existed, or showed good quality roads where the found a dirt track for farm carts instead. I wonder if this is one of those maps?
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RE: Road movement

Post by keitherson »

What is the difference between Mud and Heavy Mud is in inches and did we consider the ratio of clay to sand in the Ukraine?
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RE: Road movement

Post by Light4bettor »

MAS: I was thinking the same thing re: the 'best road' as Minsk-Moscow. It appears to be Brest-Bobruisk-Moscow, or Panzerstrasse 1 as you point out. On the other hand I've come across many mentions by the Germans that they had really poor maps that sometimes showed roads where none existed, or showed good quality roads where the found a dirt track for farm carts instead. I wonder if this is one of those maps?

Yes- Brest -Brobruisk-Moscow makes sense (Smolensk- Mosocow highway too)
Interesting question: I can't answer, but it appears that the Germans may of had teams mapping the areas under their control (the territory conquered after Barbarossa-- places behind Army Group North / Center / and South-- plus captured Soviet maps that were probably used to update/cross check their battle maps: then again once they determined captured soviet military maps were accurate they may have just Germanized the place names and copied everything else). And those maps were subsequently used and were now super accurate (including thickly wooded areas and even it seems small trails).

So, what you can do (and I plan to do a bit of this in the future) is cross check German/Soviet primary sources (that contain their original maps based on new info they got) with what you have and check for accuracy.

I'll include an example I screenshotted- its a map used by the 35 Infanterie-Divison in winter 43/44 (thats the info the site gives;and in this case they might be off a bit but its an excellent site overall). most military maps use the scale of 1 kilometer by 1 kilometer per square. Notice all the place names are in German- even the smallest locales are named. This is Mogilev. I got it from https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org

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Light4bettor
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RE: Road movement

Post by Light4bettor »

Another way (besides going to an excellent library to do research at period maps like Red Lancer got access to and was kind enough to show us an example of)is to look for Post war documents produced by Officers. This one in particular was made by a German officer for the Americans after the war--- as an aide to his description and analysis of clearing operations in the first 3-7 days of Barbarossa in Malorita (that town 30 miles south of Brest Litovsk). Notice his map shows 3 levels of roads and single and double track railroads in its map legend. Of course more research is needed to verify/ check, but this is stuff that is a start (I'm doing this to expand my knowledge of the conflict.) Check out a single line track branching off a double line track 15 miles west of Kobryn.

Hell, if you Google Earth Belarus (and elsewhere, compare Mogilev-even the downtown city streets are the same now.) you'll find that alot of these rail lines and roads cover the same spots still (as one would expect).

By the way, compare the 4 main roads going into Brest on this map with Red's map and it checks, but raises other questions as he seems selective on which main roads he shows compared to Reds map (maybe he just showed the ones that seemed relevant to for the operations, food for thought).
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RE: Road movement

Post by loki100 »

another good source of maps is the University of Texas' series:

http://legacy.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/eastern_europe/

(actually the whole web site is wonderful if you like maps [;)])

The maps are based on a mix of a 1939 Soviet mapping series and some produced to the same scale by the Germans during the war. Some of them have all sorts of interesting notes that show the impact of previous fighting
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RE: Road movement

Post by Light4bettor »

Fantastisch Loki,

This great! Thanks.
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RE: Road movement

Post by Blagrot »

ORIGINAL: keitherson

What is the difference between Mud and Heavy Mud is in inches and did we consider the ratio of clay to sand in the Ukraine?

Need the difference in centimetres please, I work in Metric! [:D]
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Hanny
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RE: Road movement

Post by Hanny »

ORIGINAL: keitherson

What is the difference between Mud and Heavy Mud is in inches and did we consider the ratio of clay to sand in the Ukraine?

On a road it makes little difference if it’s not an all weather or hard surface road.

Hard Surface roads length in 1940, 143,400 klm.
unsurfaced roads road length in 1940, 1,387,800 klm.These turn to mud in rain weather, there effects on transport ton miles are noted in the QM Manual, which was authorised by Wagner for all Axis forces to use.

Soil quality in Russia was indeed an important issue, it was why SU ran hugue freight weights at low speed as opposed to German in the Reich moving 3 times as fast but at a lower tonnage, Germany had a quarter of the manpower involved in railway conversion and repair.

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RE: Road movement

Post by Hanny »

ORIGINAL: RedLancer

I spent many hours reviewing contemporary maps with a good dose of what seemed right. It all boils down to a MP value in a hex set by weather and terrain.

I'll make the following observation - WitE2 is a game and we have tried to make things as historically sympathetic as the code allows. It uses 10 mile hexes and week long turns. I'm now waiting for someone to ask what the difference between Mud and Heavy Mud is in inches and did we consider the ratio of clay to sand in the Ukraine? When they do I'm sure the intent is to show they know more than we do.
Asking question is the accepted learning method.
Did you compare with actual klm of surfaced and unsurfaced roads in Russia?, as in Hunter, The soviet transportation experience. That with the manuals gives you exact historical data to work from, most of Russia was poor roads, 143k was average or better.


10 miles is a mp cost of 1, how many gallons a vechicle in the Division is that In 2, how does that hex being an autobhan road change the cost, how does that hex bring a dirt road in wet conditions change it, in WiTE it’s 1 mps cost is nothing close to norms for cross country.

In WiTE 1 a major reason for SU problems with supply and achieving historic advance rates was because all trucks are the same freight, while in history the SU average carry weight rose to over 3, and Guards etc were getting the lions share of the heavier ones for their ops, this cannot occur in 1 due to normalisation of all trucks to the same capacity for the whole war, LL trucks and Locomotives do not have the logistical impact they did.
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RE: Road movement

Post by RedLancer »

ORIGINAL: Hanny

Did you compare with actual klm of surfaced and unsurfaced roads in Russia?, as in Hunter, The soviet transportation experience. That with the manuals gives you exact historical data to work from, most of Russia was poor roads, 143k was average or better.

10 miles is a mp cost of 1, how many gallons a vechicle in the Division is that In 2, how does that hex being an autobhan road change the cost, how does that hex bring a dirt road in wet conditions change it, in WiTE it’s 1 mps cost is nothing close to norms for cross country.

No, because that data is largely irrelevant within the game's abstraction of terrain and roads. Quoting facts and figures is all well and good, but trying to link those to the game isn't. If you had any clear understanding of the WitE2 game mechanics you would appreciate the non sequitur logic between the data you quote and what the game does. The discussion in another thread on Sdkfz 251s is a perfect example. Having total production numbers and comparing them to the game is only valuable if every variant is in the game. They are not. Using WitE1 as your start is also pretty pointless. I'm struggling to think of any major code process or art that has not been redone since the code split that led to WitE2; and that was before Morvael re-wrote large elements of the WitE1 code.

So for roads having the length by type is of little use because:

- Each hex is assigned a generic road value and there are only three choices: good, average and poor. (In WitW this was done by country and not hex). Note the terms are broad adjectives and not descriptors of specific road type or surface.
- The choice was qualitative based on good judgement and a balance of the number of roads, their type, map location and the hex terrain.
- It absolutely wasn't done by a quantitative assessment of road length - not least because total length of roads and quality (type/surface) per hex is so different.
- The intent was to better define available manoeuvre corridors to add an additional dimension to movement particularly in dense terrain and inclement weather.
- The screenshot should answer your MP questions - note the yellow text - these costs are editable by anyone who chooses.

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RE: Road movement

Post by sillyflower »

Thanks John - a very clear explanation and all seems very well thought-out.
The only query I have is that I can't see any of the numbers being in yellow. Is that WAD, an error or due to my elderly eyesight?

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