Russian Mobilization - disrupted or destroyed?

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mdsmall
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Russian Mobilization - disrupted or destroyed?

Post by mdsmall »

In my current game playing the Entente, the CP player is following an opening strategy against Russia based in part on capturing the hexes on which Russian units mobilize ("spawn") in the later turns of the game. From my reading of the relevant Decision Events in the Editor, it looks like these units will not show up in other locations unless they are specified in the original Decision Event ( and mostly, they are not, as only one hex is specified per unit). But I think they might still show up if I recapture the spawning hexes at some later date in the game. Is this correct? Or if their designated mobilization points are captured by the enemy, are these units lost forever?
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BillRunacre
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RE: Russian Mobilization - disrupted or destroyed?

Post by BillRunacre »

That is correct but only if there aren't alternative designated deployment locations, as a script can have alternatives assigned to it.

If you can let me know which locations you think are affected I will see if they have alternatives, and if not I will add some.
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RE: Russian Mobilization - disrupted or destroyed?

Post by mdsmall »

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

If you can let me know which locations you think are affected I will see if they have alternatives, and if not I will add some.

Hi Bill - There are ten different event scripts which mobilize the Russian army close to the front line in Poland, East Prussia and Galicia between August 8 and September 10. (There are additional scripts which mobilize units from Turkestan and Siberia that arrive around Moscow). Only one of these ten offers - for the II Corps - offers two possible deployment locations, both close to Grodno. From what I can see, all the rest of them offer only one deployment hex per unit.

If you edits these scripts to provide alternative spawning locations nearby, it won't really help the Russians if the Central Powers are in the process of cutting all rail lines to Poland and surrounding their forces there. A better fall-back would be for the units to mobilize around major rail junctions well back from the front, say around Minsk and Kiev. That way the Russians would still get the units, but there would be delay before they arrived at the front line, either through normal or operational movement. The Central Powers would still get a significant pay-off from this strategy by disrupting the Russian mobilization; but they would not in effect have destroyed units which they never met in combat in the first place.

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OldCrowBalthazor
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RE: Russian Mobilization - disrupted or destroyed?

Post by OldCrowBalthazor »

+1

Just take a peak in the War Room...Montenegro Gambit Test 1 and 2. That will illustrate why this question is being asked.
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Bavre
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RE: Russian Mobilization - disrupted or destroyed?

Post by Bavre »

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

+1

Just take a peak in the War Room...Montenegro Gambit Test 1 and 2. That will illustrate why this question is being asked.

I did no M-gambit in this game here, just saying. However, good to be notorious [8D]

On the actual topic:
I have asked this myself, plus the related question wether it's better to overrun those deployment points or wait and ambush the units as they pop up.
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OldCrowBalthazor
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RE: Russian Mobilization - disrupted or destroyed?

Post by OldCrowBalthazor »

ORIGINAL: Bavre

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

+1

Just take a peak in the War Room...Montenegro Gambit Test 1 and 2. That will illustrate why this question is being asked.

I did no M-gambit in this game here, just saying. However, good to be notorious [8D]

On the actual topic:
I have asked this myself, plus the related question wether it's better to overrun those deployment points or wait and ambush the units as they pop up.

No, I wasn't talking about the M-Gambit per say...just a location of an image concerning this topic.In this image, the Russian HQ spawn right in front of a CP unit. This happens all the time with incursions, M-Gambit or not. I should of been more clear on my previous post. [:D]

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mdsmall
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RE: Russian Mobilization - disrupted or destroyed?

Post by mdsmall »

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

In my current game playing the Entente, the CP player is following an opening strategy against Russia based in part on capturing the hexes on which Russian units mobilize ("spawn") in the later turns of the game. From my reading of the relevant Decision Events in the Editor, it looks like these units will not show up in other locations unless they are specified in the original Decision Event ( and mostly, they are not, as only one hex is specified per unit). But I think they might still show up if I recapture the spawning hexes at some later date in the game. Is this correct? Or if their designated mobilization points are captured by the enemy, are these units lost forever?

I have discovered a new example of Russian units that never show up if their initial mobilization is disrupted. In my current game, to avoid the German pincers moves in the East (depicted above) I retreated my Russian forces in the opening turns to defend a line in front of Vilno and Minsk, abandoning Brest-Litovsk. Normally, at the beginning of the fourth Entente turn on September 19, DE 401 fires, giving the Russians the choice of having two Caucasian mountain corps either mobilize around Brest-Litovsk for 50 MPPs, or mobilize at Alexandropol and Tiflis in the Caucasus for free. But if Brest-Litovsk is not in Entente hands on September 15, 1914 then DE401 does not fire, and the two mountain corps never show up.

This strikes me as a glitch. I can understand why Russian corps scheduled to mobilize in Poland might not show up if their mobilization points are captured by the Central Powers (although as the Entente player, I would prefer it if they mobilized somewhere else in Russia as a fall-back). But I don't see why Caucasian corps that under a DE could be transferred to Poland would not still mobilize in their home points in the Caucasus if Brest-Litovsk is not in Russian hands. Was this intended? and if not, could it be fixed in the next patch?
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Bavre
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RE: Russian Mobilization - disrupted or destroyed?

Post by Bavre »

Ah that's why Kars was empty!

On a general note:
I never understood why this deployment mechanic is there in the first place. We already have the deployment via the production queue which can, if needed, be constrained to certain locations. Seems to me there are two mechanics here, which do exactely the same thing and one of them is just plain inferior.
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RE: Russian Mobilization - disrupted or destroyed?

Post by mdsmall »

I suppose DE401 is there so that the Russians can transfer two corps to the main front in Poland from the Caucasus, for only slightly more MPPs (50 for this DE versus 44 if you operationally moved the same units from the Caucasus) but without having the morale and readiness drop that comes after an operational move. So, if Russia really needs the two corps in Poland on that particular turn, it makes some sense to say Yes. Otherwise, it is much smarter to say No and use your units to protect Kars against the Ottomans.

What does not make sense though is the Caucasus corps never showing up at all. I hope/presume this could be fixed by changing the link between the script for DE401 and the Russian unit mobilizations scripts. But I would prefer to let Bill opine on this.
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RE: Russian Mobilization - disrupted or destroyed?

Post by shri »

One way to avoid all this confusion would be to give all troops mobilising after the first round, to mobilise as deployments instead of on actual HEXES. The railways were fully militarised esp in Germany but also in other countries and could change deployment at the nth moment if it felt like they would be slaughtered upon de-training. Can be applicable for all countries.
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Tanaka
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RE: Russian Mobilization - disrupted or destroyed?

Post by Tanaka »

Yeah I've noticed the Russian AI having units placed here surrounded and completely cut off from supply...
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mdsmall
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RE: Russian Mobilization - disrupted or destroyed?

Post by mdsmall »

ORIGINAL: shri

One way to avoid all this confusion would be to give all troops mobilising after the first round, to mobilise as deployments instead of on actual HEXES.

How would that work in practice? Would there be a deployment phase for at the start of each turn when a major received a late mobilizing unit, modelled on the Deployment Phase at the beginning of Turn One for Germany?
Chernobyl
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RE: Russian Mobilization - disrupted or destroyed?

Post by Chernobyl »

I'm pretty sure the developers did not intend for Russian corps to disappear. It seems that multiple units may be vulnerable. I think at the very least they should all get a last resort backup deployment location like Moscow.
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BillRunacre
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RE: Russian Mobilization - disrupted or destroyed?

Post by BillRunacre »

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

In my current game playing the Entente, the CP player is following an opening strategy against Russia based in part on capturing the hexes on which Russian units mobilize ("spawn") in the later turns of the game. From my reading of the relevant Decision Events in the Editor, it looks like these units will not show up in other locations unless they are specified in the original Decision Event ( and mostly, they are not, as only one hex is specified per unit). But I think they might still show up if I recapture the spawning hexes at some later date in the game. Is this correct? Or if their designated mobilization points are captured by the enemy, are these units lost forever?

I have discovered a new example of Russian units that never show up if their initial mobilization is disrupted. In my current game, to avoid the German pincers moves in the East (depicted above) I retreated my Russian forces in the opening turns to defend a line in front of Vilno and Minsk, abandoning Brest-Litovsk. Normally, at the beginning of the fourth Entente turn on September 19, DE 401 fires, giving the Russians the choice of having two Caucasian mountain corps either mobilize around Brest-Litovsk for 50 MPPs, or mobilize at Alexandropol and Tiflis in the Caucasus for free. But if Brest-Litovsk is not in Entente hands on September 15, 1914 then DE401 does not fire, and the two mountain corps never show up.

This strikes me as a glitch. I can understand why Russian corps scheduled to mobilize in Poland might not show up if their mobilization points are captured by the Central Powers (although as the Entente player, I would prefer it if they mobilized somewhere else in Russia as a fall-back). But I don't see why Caucasian corps that under a DE could be transferred to Poland would not still mobilize in their home points in the Caucasus if Brest-Litovsk is not in Russian hands. Was this intended? and if not, could it be fixed in the next patch?

Thanks for the explanation and yes, I'll be fixing this as well as some of the other things being mentioned in connection with the disruption caused to Russia by a big German push early on.
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BillRunacre
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RE: Russian Mobilization - disrupted or destroyed?

Post by BillRunacre »

ORIGINAL: Bavre

Ah that's why Kars was empty!

On a general note:
I never understood why this deployment mechanic is there in the first place. We already have the deployment via the production queue which can, if needed, be constrained to certain locations. Seems to me there are two mechanics here, which do exactely the same thing and one of them is just plain inferior.

I did once assign all units to arrive via the Production Queue at their specified locations, but it was really, really tedious having to manually deploy them all, therefore having them deploy by script is a quicker and easier mechanism.

Additionally, via scripting we can now add alternative deployment locations for these units, and that's something that will be done for them all so that Russia get all the units she should.
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Bavre
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RE: Russian Mobilization - disrupted or destroyed?

Post by Bavre »

Yes it's definitely more tedious that way and most of the time it does not make a difference anyway. But having your units sniped after they pop up is also a bit frustrating ( those evil Schlieffen players always kill one of my precious precious english corps). Seems there's no real best solution here. Btw, I noticed some units popping up at the beginning of a players turn, some at the end, with the latter being of course much more vulnerable. Maybe letting the most endangered spots deploy at the beginning of the turn would help.
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