Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

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juv95hrn
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Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by juv95hrn »

Hello,

I wonder if a beta or a dev, could comment on the supply and logistics overall of WITE 2.

I always had a feeling that the Germans could perform a little bit better than historically in WITE1. How does this convert in to WITE? I dont mind if its a good game balance and design choice. But it should be acknowledged.

I just rewatched this A(TIKS video of Axis logistics on the Eastern Front), and it made me curious how it reflects in WITE2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBAoW0PWNUw
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by loki100 »

have you read this showcase and the current AARs?

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4937932
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Hanny
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by Hanny »

Hi
ORIGINAL: juv95hrn

Hello,

I wonder if a beta or a dev, could comment on the supply and logistics overall of WITE 2.

I always had a feeling that the Germans could perform a little bit better than historically in WITE1. How does this convert in to WITE? I dont mind if its a good game balance and design choice. But it should be acknowledged.

I just rewatched this A(TIKS video of Axis logistics on the Eastern Front), and it made me curious how it reflects in WITE2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBAoW0PWNUw

Good question, but I doubt you will be happy with any answer as as there’s are a lot of caveats and a lot of variation, and would need a lot of thought and number crunching to get an answer that will have a wide margin of error, but broadly speaking of the top of my head Fuel for instance, for June 41 Germany QM reports show a consumption of 318k tons of motor fuel, ( so on average you divide number of Divs and get you daily tons of fuel expended but hey that’s for the whole month and the whole Heer, so problems, is it going to be more acuarate if you do it quarters and so on, your still best guessing at the % in the East being consumed, but anyways, you get a Tons per Div.) and on average 41 Pzr Div (hey the game does not have a single average Div, more problems)required 22.5 tons per 100 miles, and had 300 tons forward liftcapacity with the Div. Spanish Blue Div average 25 mpd movement during its time on the Eastern Front, an astonishing feet.

In game that’s 10 hexes, for a cost of 105 tons, and 30 hexes, which is when fuel capacity carried is exhausted and resupply required, which you do in T1 with ease, why With ease?, we’ll if you look at the Div in WiTE 1 it sits on accumulated stocks far in excess of what it can carry, ( this I think is the main cause of player perception of Axis doing better)but the game allows it to move with the formation rather than stay in th DIv Depots and have to be trucked to the Div as it moves forward each bound. A Pzr Div can have advanced 300 miles for 30 mps, and still have 600 tons with itself in game from its start of 900, and has been costed some fuel to move at start stocks, it to keep up.Example move Panzer 40 hexes from 50 mps, and it’s 400 miles from it’s acculated stocks, but has moved it with it.

So if you look at the fuel stocks of a Div before movement, and after movement you see how many tons it has consumed, compare to actual June average, remember the Pzr is the exception not the average, but you can do your whole first turn and record fuel consumption if you really want to get more accuracy, but that in game better accuracy is still going to be hard to compare to anything meaningful from the historical data we have.

But each day the Div supply replaces what is used, so actually, after 2 days forward bound the Supply has dropped by 1 not 2 days, depending how far the Div bound takes it, it may not be possible to be resupplied in a single day, as it’s around trip to do so, so if the forward bound is 50 miles, a resupply column has a round trip of 100 miles to do in the same time period, depending on the distances it may soon be resupplied not every day, but every other day, or every third day. what increases the Divs chances is the non Div assets taking fuel from depots/ rail heads and creating forward dumps, closer to those requiring it, allowing Div supply trucks to draw from them instead.

munition expenditure I recently posted on daily average historical expenditure and you can find that with a search, and compare to what a Div is expending in each attack.
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Hanny
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by Hanny »

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn

Hello,

I wonder if a beta or a dev, could comment on the supply and logistics overall of WITE 2.

I always had a feeling that the Germans could perform a little bit better than historically in WITE1. How does this convert in to WITE? I dont mind if its a good game balance and design choice. But it should be acknowledged.

I just rewatched this A(TIKS video of Axis logistics on the Eastern Front), and it made me curious how it reflects in WITE2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBAoW0PWNUw
How WITE 2 looks to be improved is the greater granulation in movement costs per hex, by adding in a road network, and weather effects, and the depot system, I doubt the NDA allows betas to comment in the details your hoping for, and the devs have far more important things to do, as to explain its detailed working would be quite a thing.
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by RedLancer »

Henrik

I'll comment as a member of WitE2 Dev which as Hanny highlights he isn't...

The WitE2 logistics model is far more sophisticated than WitE but it is still not a perfect recreation of history. The logistics system is based on freight measured in tons. Freight is a blank cheque. When you cash in a ton of freight it gives you a ton of what you need be that supplies, fuel, ammo or replacements. In logistic terms this is a clear abstraction as when something is shipped you cannot guarantee it is what is required. Trucks are also abstracted as they are generic and all move the same amount of freight. Taking it further: the week long turns make things even more opaque. There are also in turn opportunities, like combat, that allow units to resupply. If you are looking for a 100% transparent logistics model then WitE2 is not it.

All that said we have done everything we can to make the system follow historic norms. Under the microscope the system is flawed but I can say this as a professional military logistician in my day job I've not seen better at the scale WitE2 operates.
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CapAndGown
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by CapAndGown »

Did you use Crevald's "Supplying War" as a source?
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by RedLancer »

The system was designed for WitW and Gary researched extensively to develop it. I don't know for certain if Gary has read Supplying War but I certainly have.
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Hanny
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by Hanny »

ORIGINAL: RedLancer

Henrik

I'll comment as a member of WitE2 Dev which as Hanny highlights he isn't...

The WitE2 logistics model is far more sophisticated than WitE but it is still not a perfect recreation of history. The logistics system is based on freight measured in tons. Freight is a blank cheque. When you cash in a ton of freight it gives you a ton of what you need be that supplies, fuel, ammo or replacements. In logistic terms this is a clear abstraction as when something is shipped you cannot guarantee it is what is required. Trucks are also abstracted as they are generic and all move the same amount of freight. Taking it further: the week long turns make things even more opaque. There are also in turn opportunities, like combat, that allow units to resupply. If you are looking for a 100% transparent logistics model then WitE2 is not it.

All that said we have done everything we can to make the system follow historic norms. Under the microscope the system is flawed but I can say this as a professional military logistician in my day job I've not seen better at the scale WitE2 operates.
Germany produced by June 41 159613 trucks, 40% were over 2 tons, the rest under, rest of the MTV was lt MT under a ton. it’s inentory was 191000, The rest of the transport in inventorywas from European stock (88ID had no German MTV, as did a hanfull of AD) and of lower capacity. Game is using an average truck of over 2 tons, so can those wanting to, adjust this in the options menu for transport?.

Is the truck weight a constant or a variable by year?, 1941 saw Germany produce 89727 trucks, 39574 in occupied regions, for an average of 2.5 tons, as industry phased out lighter trucks in favour of heavier,, is this yearly production also a hard cap on numbers of chassis for replacements and new units,, does this concept extend to LL locomotives and German Locos designed for Russia having when in service changing freight values.
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Hanny
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by Hanny »

ORIGINAL: CapAndGown

Did you use Crevald's "Supplying War" as a source?

In Supplying war you get aMot/Pzr with 10 supply columns of MTV of 30 tons, Inf 6 columns and not all motorised etc,it does nor get into the detail of how many MTV make up the 30 ton standard supply column, as it’s a standdard weight not standard number of MTV, WiTE1 was already using more detailed calls, for instance 16 Panzer moves to Katowice, it moves its 2510 tons and you can see in the logistics report next turn in used 1068 supply trucks to achieve that, at a fuel cost of 147.So 2.3 tons a truck, and because it’s under TOE it gets 97 replacements.
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oldMarinePanzer
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by oldMarinePanzer »

I think I read in another post here that production is not editable like in WitE1, is that true? Some of us like to tweak the locations/city configuration. Also, what other tabs/configurations are editable/NOT editable?
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: oldMarinePanzer

I think I read in another post here that production is not editable like in WitE1, is that true? Some of us like to tweak the locations/city configuration. Also, what other tabs/configurations are editable/NOT editable?

where do you want to move this set of factories to?

Image

So yes, you can reconfigure the entire industrial base to fit whatever you wish to see.

and this might give you some idea of the range of stuff accessible via the editor (its far more than you could access in WiTE1)

Image
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by oldMarinePanzer »

OK, that is fantastic. I am one of those gamers that gets way down into the fine details of the game configurations. For example, if Germany decided to NOT produce the Tiger I and produced Panther D's instead what would that have done to the war, based on the fact that 1-3 Panthers COULD get produced in place of every Tiger I :-) . Glad to know that I could still do that.
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by geforth »

Actually I do not pre order games. But now the time has come to make an exception. There is so much potential to try things. I'm really excited to play this successor. :)
juv95hrn
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by juv95hrn »

I am very happy about the changes in the logistic system.

I am also getting a lot of new information from YouTube and the internet, that makes me ponder game design compared to realism.

Having played wargames since the 80´s I am slightly inclined to feel that I have personally, along with probably every game designer has bought a bit into the myth of German "invincibility". I would find it interesting to discuss more about how "bad" certain factors in a game should be, or not, for game balance, enjoyment and realism. In this thread, german logistics.

Here is another source that further discusses German logistics?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Oc_lFmp6vQ

Do you feel Germany in war games (including WITE 1 and 2) gets, and needs better supply systems than i real life?
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by Mahrgell »

I believe this is mostly the result of the fact, that in hindsight you can spot a lot of things that went wrong.

And now come 3 things:

a) supposedly there was an easy way to do things better (e.g. produce 3 panthers instead of 1 tiger or whatever supply management the game allows), which are basically not fact checked by reality - aka, what kind of unforeseen bad consequences would then have followed, how would the enemy have reacted etc...
b) have you ever heard people talking after some sports final about what the winner could have done better to crush their opponent even harder than they did? Nope, nobody cares. But everyone talks about how the loser could have won if they only did this and that. So while everyone talks about how the Germans could have done better, barely anyone cares to give the same benefit of hindsight to the Sowjets.
c) History writers have kinda decided to picture the Sowjets as brainless masses rushing into machine guns. While on the western front alternative history analysis is usually rather kinda fair and basically, for everything the Nazis could have done differently, a proper reaction of the Western Allies is accounted for, this is usually not done on the Eastern front. Surely the Germans could have done everything better, but the Sowjets would have not reacted in any way.

And well, in the end game designers have to account for the fantasies of their players. And all this leads to a lot of fantasies how Germany could have done better...
And lastly, you have to remember that this a game. Imagine, if you do everything perfect as Germans you reach historical "success", yet 95% of the players get murdered in '41. Maybe this would actually be the "proper outcome". But who would play it?
Just look at witp mods. There are a million mods turning Japan into some intergalactic super power, where they strip mined the moon to build a megafleet, so the game becomes more even. But nobody bothers with making a mod about "What if the US wouldn't have ignored absolutely every warning they had about the Japanese attack and would have demolished the Japanese in '42, though thats much closer to any historical possibility than those japanese pipe dreams.
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by Hanny »

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn

I am very happy about the changes in the logistic system.

I am also getting a lot of new information from YouTube and the internet, that makes me ponder game design compared to realism.

Having played wargames since the 80´s I am slightly inclined to feel that I have personally, along with probably every game designer has bought a bit into the myth of German "invincibility". I would find it interesting to discuss more about how "bad" certain factors in a game should be, or not, for game balance, enjoyment and realism. In this thread, german logistics.

Here is another source that further discusses German logistics?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Oc_lFmp6vQ

Do you feel Germany in war games (including WITE 1 and 2) gets, and needs better supply systems than i real life?

Realism is that Germany had control of c3% of the worlds oil, and found it could not put a limit to the war, with its oil resources it created two Armies, a mostly horse pulled Inf Army, which was the Bulk of the forces, and a partially mechanised Panzer Army, most mechanisation went into the Panzer Armies, including specialist Formations, LW, then supply, then private Armies like the SS , Herman Goring etc. what was left the Inf put into supply columns.See TheRussian Front by Dunnigan for % of MTV in all formations by both sides and changes by year. Operationally they played well above their weight, but ultimately in a mechanised war, if you don’t have the oil....

It’s logistics for the Panzer Army was still good enough to achieve its strategic goals from 39 to 41, when Germany could not declare victory, it had won and rule Europe as it wanted, and Europe was now a food deficient region, Dairy farm stocks in Nazi controlled nations for instance, go down the tubes as no one can feed them due to RN blockade, dependent of Soviet food imports to keep rations levels up, let alone the oil it needed to fight with, to break even, Hitler had to find the millions of tons of cereal crops he was getting from Russia, which skewed military strategy to control where it was produced, and reduce the population that was consuming it as unwanted more mouths to feed.German male population was older than Russian, so the mil age males in Russia made the logistical balance of Human Resources even greater than the raw numbers show, human and material logistics were all against success, the German Qm, explained Pre invasion the problems,AH countered math with, the math won’t matter as they will collapse before the math matters, we’ll it did matter, and in 42 they again explained that Blau was logistically unsound, AH again knew better, or rather, if I don’t get the oil, we lose and they will hang us.

The Panzer Army again went into action, but instead of nations that could be ruptured in a single operational bound of 300 miles which could be logistically supported, it had a campaign that needed three such bounds, and it was not able to do so, and had created by its ideological reasoning for the settlement in the East of mass population reductions, a generation willing to take losses like no other to see them fail and pay for trying.

TIk is ok to listen to, I found his the numbers explain it all the worst one, he missed the force ratio that existed to causes losses, ignored wia, and basically had no idea how to measure cost benefit in casualty rates, and relative effiecency, but was happy to declare a conclusion anyways.

Take a look online at Logistics of the combined Arms Army motor transport, by HGW Davie.
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Hanny
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by Hanny »

ORIGINAL: Mahrgell

I believe this is mostly the result of the fact, that in hindsight you can spot a lot of things that went wrong.

And now come 3 things:

a) supposedly there was an easy way to do things better (e.g. produce 3 panthers instead of 1 tiger or whatever supply management the game allows), which are basically not fact checked by reality - aka, what kind of unforeseen bad consequences would then have followed, how would the enemy have reacted etc...
b) have you ever heard people talking after some sports final about what the winner could have done better to crush their opponent even harder than they did? Nope, nobody cares. But everyone talks about how the loser could have won if they only did this and that. So while everyone talks about how the Germans could have done better, barely anyone cares to give the same benefit of hindsight to the Sowjets.
c) History writers have kinda decided to picture the Sowjets as brainless masses rushing into machine guns. While on the western front alternative history analysis is usually rather kinda fair and basically, for everything the Nazis could have done differently, a proper reaction of the Western Allies is accounted for, this is usually not done on the Eastern front. Surely the Germans could have done everything better, but the Sowjets would have not reacted in any way.

And well, in the end game designers have to account for the fantasies of their players. And all this leads to a lot of fantasies how Germany could have done better...
And lastly, you have to remember that this a game. Imagine, if you do everything perfect as Germans you reach historical "success", yet 95% of the players get murdered in '41. Maybe this would actually be the "proper outcome". But who would play it?
Just look at witp mods. There are a million mods turning Japan into some intergalactic super power, where they strip mined the moon to build a megafleet, so the game becomes more even. But nobody bothers with making a mod about "What if the US wouldn't have ignored absolutely every warning they had about the Japanese attack and would have demolished the Japanese in '42, though thats much closer to any historical possibility than those japanese pipe dreams.
How many first turns have we all done to get it just right.........
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by Light4bettor »

ORIGINAL: Mahrgell



And well, in the end game designers have to account for the fantasies of their players. And all this leads to a lot of fantasies how Germany could have done better...

Reading Halder's fantasies get checked in real time-- Halder's diary- who of course was following Barbarossa daily and wrote daily entries into his personal diary.

June 22-July 19 (1941)-- real sense of boundless optimism-
July 20- you can sense a tone change in his writing - cautiously optimistic to neutral tones.
Aug 11 -- The penny drops-- "We have underestimated the Russian colossus..."
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by Sammy5IsAlive »

For me it's fairly simple. We are obviously pre-release at the moment but if you have a look at the first page of Loki's AAR you can get a fairly good idea of what is required for the Axis to get a win in 41 or 42. As an aside I think it is worth pointing out that as far as I'm can tell those are 'game wins' rather than 'war wins' - I don't think that the win conditions equate to a historical contention that had the Soviets lost Leningrad and Moscow in 41 they would have collapsed and lost the war - just that had that happened it would have been highly unlikely that they would have been in Berlin anywhere close to the historical date.

Going back to those victory conditions and what they represent in terms of the 'potential' of the Axis forces in 41 and in 42 I'd suggest that the design is pretty rational. It's basically saying that the 'real life' Axis forces achieved close to their potential (for the sake of argument 90%) but had things been slightly different, both from the Axis perspective in terms of things that could have been done better and the Soviet perspective in terms of things that could have been done worse, there was enough 'spare' potential for them to have taken Moscow and Leningrad in 41 or Stalingrad and the Caucasus in 42 - neither of which would have necessarily won the war (my own view is that the Eastern Front became 'unwinnable' for the Axis with the various declarations of war after Pearl Harbour) but both of which would have significantly delayed an eventual Soviet victory.

If you are happy that the victory system is robust then from a gameplay perspective it comes down to player matching and game balancing. As far as I'm concerned from an individual 'match' perspective an experienced Axis player wiping out a novice Soviet player and taking Moscow/Leningrad before the mud (or conversely a reversed situation where an experienced Soviet player stops the Axis dead at the major river lines) doesn't mean the logistics system or the game as a whole is unbalanced or ahistorical, it just means the players are badly matched. A problem only arises if you start getting a certain outcome occurring much more frequently over a large number of games between players of varying abilities.

Just picking numbers out of the air if I was trying to balance the game I'd be looking at aiming for something like 40% of games ending in 41, 30% in 42, 10% in 43 and the remaining 20% getting all the way to 45 - with Axis/Soviet victories spread roughly equal. For me any big departures from those numbers would suggest that extra work needs to be done on balancing. I know it might seem counter-intuitive to suggest that only 20% of games would approach a 'historical outcome' but for me that is the reality of the likely disparity in player abilities - at least to begin with. As time goes on and players become more experienced and those disparities reduce then obviously you'd hope that games would last longer but for me the responsibility for that happening lies with the players as a community rather than with the developers.
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Hanny
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RE: Supply in WITE 2 compared to earlier version and reality?

Post by Hanny »

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn

I am very happy about the changes in the logistic system.

I am also getting a lot of new information from YouTube and the internet, that makes me ponder game design compared to realism.

Having played wargames since the 80´s I am slightly inclined to feel that I have personally, along with probably every game designer has bought a bit into the myth of German "invincibility". I would find it interesting to discuss more about how "bad" certain factors in a game should be, or not, for game balance, enjoyment and realism. In this thread, german logistics.

Here is another source that further discusses German logistics?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Oc_lFmp6vQ

Do you feel Germany in war games (including WITE 1 and 2) gets, and needs better supply systems than i real life?

Do you feel TIK using 21 century civilian profit loss supply chain logistics instead of using German military logistics of the period, is helping explain anything?, in terms of your perception of what reality was in 41.

Examples, TIk Says AGC can’t go to Moscow from Smolensk because of Logistics, (Does this make them bad at logistics?, could anyone else do it better a failure to compare makes everything kinda moot) so Guderian can’t go there but can go to Kiev, clearly you can measure that logistically going to Kiev would have allowed him to also go to Moscow, using an outcome model, but because AGC logistical supply was being consumed to counter Russian operations instead of becoming stocks to allow its next operational bound, and for that to happen took time, so Pzr Group had capacity to act now, but not with AGC.

in game WITE 2 looks to have a system of reducing enemy cps for its next turn by actions taken by your action in your turn, and phased reduction in your own turn where space and time constraints have an effect, creating the same conditionsAGC found itself in. These new mechanism look to be important improvements.

US RedBall convoy system consumed 300k tons a day of fuel to get supplies to where they were required, the Heer had that level of on consumption for its peak month of consumption in June41 for everyone, the military of the period did not operate on a profit loss model, it ran on a military need basis.
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