Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

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Jorgen_CAB
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

I don't want ships to be able to refit in space as it make no sense for ships to include such most likely bulky components to perform such things in space. It is Ok for a stations as they don't need engines to drag such modules around the galaxy and it makes more sense as they can't move.
Construction ships have the construction yard - a size 20 component. It also has storage to store the resource.
Putting those facilities into a Military ship would easily take up 1/2 to 1/4 of the overall ship size allowance.
And that is all asuming Construction Components aren't actually slot limited to one ship and one station design, wich has no weapon slots to arm anyway or no engines to move. Wich would make your problem impossible to produce.

As for standing still: Construction Ships in DW1 already need to stand still to use their Factories or their Construction components. As well as their Solar Collectors. No reason it would work differently here.

So your entire problem seems to be based on falacies and improper understanding of the DW1 rules - wich unless explicitly mentioned, we have to asume still apply.

First of... it is a very different thing for a ship to work on itself and not something else... and constructors need not only the tools it also need factories and the storage to do what it needs to do. Do you expect a military ship to be equipped with all this just to upgrade in the field?!?

Or do you mean that a construction ship could be used to upgrade ships someplace else?!?

In general I would probably see a constructor to be more of a civilian type of ship so working on military ships might be a bit to complex... just in general. But perhaps not beyond the realm of impossible as long as you have all the resources available.

Equipping ships with self upgrading equipment must be more or less a total waste of mass for anything but space stations, especially explorers that needs to have lot's of range to move all that mass around. They are still going to have to return to grab the resources they need from time to time, not to mention all the extra fuel they will need to move that mass around.

Even for space station I think that for a more "realistic" perspective then constructors would be the more sane choice to upgrade them instead of including all the equipment on them to do it themselves. But from a gaming perspective it probably is just easier for all stations to be able to upgrade themselves as long as they have the material to do so. I think this is mostly about game performance than anything else.

From a logical perspective it make very little sense and from a game-play perspective I think it is a bad idea. We should be bothered by the logistical need for managing shipyards and their placements.
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SirHoraceHarkness
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by SirHoraceHarkness »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Are you talking about a Modded game?

I could find no tech or Component called "Plasma Thruster". Every last Research under Energy & Construction unlocks a component.
Except for the Standalone Construction Size upgrades, but you need to retrofit to get use from those too.

The Vanilla Game avoids passive bonuses like the Plague, having all progress be a new component.

Plasma thunderbolts are the end weapon component on the energy torpedo tree. They unlock when you finish advanced plasma physics and after you refit a ship to them they no longer need a refit to benefit from the last two research fields since they only improve the plasma thunderbolt not replace it with a new component. This works the same for all components and you only need to refit to upgrade to a new component since improvements are instantly applied as soon as the research ends.

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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB
ORIGINAL: zgrssd
ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

I don't want ships to be able to refit in space as it make no sense for ships to include such most likely bulky components to perform such things in space. It is Ok for a stations as they don't need engines to drag such modules around the galaxy and it makes more sense as they can't move.
Construction ships have the construction yard - a size 20 component. It also has storage to store the resource.
Putting those facilities into a Military ship would easily take up 1/2 to 1/4 of the overall ship size allowance.
And that is all asuming Construction Components aren't actually slot limited to one ship and one station design, wich has no weapon slots to arm anyway or no engines to move. Wich would make your problem impossible to produce.

As for standing still: Construction Ships in DW1 already need to stand still to use their Factories or their Construction components. As well as their Solar Collectors. No reason it would work differently here.

So your entire problem seems to be based on falacies and improper understanding of the DW1 rules - wich unless explicitly mentioned, we have to asume still apply.

Do you expect a military ship to be equipped with all this just to upgrade in the field?!?
No.
WICH IS WHY I NEVER SUGGESTED SOMETHING THAT STUPID.

Either it is your bad argument - or nobodies argument. Please get that through your skull already!
DW2 Poll:
"Should the Civil and non-Combat Ships loose all or most of their weapon slots?"
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=382690
StormingKiwi
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by StormingKiwi »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

Do you expect a military ship to be equipped with all this just to upgrade in the field?!?
No.
WICH IS WHY I NEVER SUGGESTED SOMETHING THAT STUPID.

Either it is your bad argument - or nobodies argument. Please get that through your skull already!
I imagine Jorgen_CAB is referring to this part of your OP:
ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Exploration Ships
They have a weaker case here. Unlike Construction Ships, they do not come with all the gear to make entire stations.
They should however still have laboratories and equipment to gather samples from a planet. So they might just be able to extract and process resources for their own upgrades. Or even self repair (even if the Damage Control is not yet generally avalible).

Way more important for them would be the ability to extract their own fuel, however. Construction Ships usually have to return to base for Raw building materials anyway, at wich point they might as well fuel up.
Exploration ships however are about going far away from any friendly station. When they find a Caslon/Hydrogen Gas giant and their fuel is less then full, they migh as well "top up". And if they reach the end of their fuel range, they might return to the nearest (save) planet with the proper resources.

Does anybody else think those changes would be a good idea, or is it just me?

It's a bad mechanic in Stellaris and it would be a bad mechanic in Distant Worlds 2 too.
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

Well... yes... I was mainly talking about explorers and constructors in general. I was not the one who brought up military ships, that was because I was a bit confused if "zgrssd" meant you could include it to them or not, it was not clear from that post.

I still think it is too easy to assume a ship can upgrade itself without very specific equipment for just that. I don't even think the basic equipment a constructor comes with is enough for that. Do we even have anything really remotely able to do this in reality, an Oil rig maybe can do much of this... but can they really?!?
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

Well... yes... I was mainly talking about explorers and constructors in general. I was not the one who brought up military ships, that was because I was a bit confused if "zgrssd" meant you could include it to them or not, it was not clear from that post.
I was already very specific about this not applying to Military Ships:
ORIGINAL: zgrssd

ORIGINAL: Hazard151

The reason for this is because space construction capacity is such a critical component of Distant Worlds' decision making. Deciding whether or not to send entire fleets back home for refits or keeping them working on the front lines even if their designs have been surpassed due to advancing technology matters plenty. In opportunity cost because those ships stuck cueing up for refit aren't doing defense and pirate suppression work.
Neither construction nor Exploration ships are operating on the "front lines" doing "defense and pirate supression work".

Those are military ships. And not with a SINGLE LETTER did I suggest this for Military Ships!

The points you are arguing against - it is insulting that you even suggest I made anything fo the sort.


ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

I still think it is too easy to assume a ship can upgrade itself without very specific equipment for just that. I don't even think the basic equipment a constructor comes with is enough for that. Do we even have anything really remotely able to do this in reality, an Oil rig maybe can do much of this... but can they really?!?
The construction ship already has extremely specific equipment - construction equipment!
And if that comes for the science ship, it would be tied to a "Science Laboratory" Module. Wich could easily be very specific as well.

A construction ship already has the gear to:
- build mining gear
- build components from raw materials that were mined
- assemble those components into entire working stations
- turn shipwreck into operation ships, in the middle of deep space

Putting a component into a Mining Station, in a 0-G environment.
Putting a component into itself, in a 0-G environment.
I fail to see any difference in those scenarios.

The most difficult thing might be replacing a life support component as you kinda need it. But chances are high you got more then 1 of those components and can life the few hours for the switch with only one.
Given that they apparently carry a entire mining station, science staiton or starports worth of crew without it even being a entry in the Cargohold, we can asume there is plenty of excess capacity to go around.
DW2 Poll:
"Should the Civil and non-Combat Ships loose all or most of their weapon slots?"
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=382690
Jorgen_CAB
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

Well... yes... I was mainly talking about explorers and constructors in general. I was not the one who brought up military ships, that was because I was a bit confused if "zgrssd" meant you could include it to them or not, it was not clear from that post.
I was already very specific about this not applying to Military Ships:
ORIGINAL: zgrssd

ORIGINAL: Hazard151

The reason for this is because space construction capacity is such a critical component of Distant Worlds' decision making. Deciding whether or not to send entire fleets back home for refits or keeping them working on the front lines even if their designs have been surpassed due to advancing technology matters plenty. In opportunity cost because those ships stuck cueing up for refit aren't doing defense and pirate suppression work.
Neither construction nor Exploration ships are operating on the "front lines" doing "defense and pirate supression work".

Those are military ships. And not with a SINGLE LETTER did I suggest this for Military Ships!

The points you are arguing against - it is insulting that you even suggest I made anything fo the sort.


ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

I still think it is too easy to assume a ship can upgrade itself without very specific equipment for just that. I don't even think the basic equipment a constructor comes with is enough for that. Do we even have anything really remotely able to do this in reality, an Oil rig maybe can do much of this... but can they really?!?
The construction ship already has extremely specific equipment - construction equipment!
And if that comes for the science ship, it would be tied to a "Science Laboratory" Module. Wich could easily be very specific as well.

A construction ship already has the gear to:
- build mining gear
- build components from raw materials that were mined
- assemble those components into entire working stations
- turn shipwreck into operation ships, in the middle of deep space

Putting a component into a Mining Station, in a 0-G environment.
Putting a component into itself, in a 0-G environment.
I fail to see any difference in those scenarios.

The most difficult thing might be replacing a life support component as you kinda need it. But chances are high you got more then 1 of those components and can life the few hours for the switch with only one.
Given that they apparently carry a entire mining station, science staiton or starports worth of crew without it even being a entry in the Cargohold, we can asume there is plenty of excess capacity to go around.


Still think it is a bad and boring idea.. both from game play and realism perspective...

From a realistic perspective it is making something very complex too simple and is something most people tend to do... things really are so much more complex in reality and gamers tend to think allot in black and white terms... terms that basically rarely exist in the real world... ;)

You suggest that they should be able to have precognitive power to know what resources they will need to do upgrades in the future without acquire the minerals someplace and have all the specialised material and tools to build this new technology. Having your Explores and Constructors to run around finding the minerals they need is kind of absurd too, this is just pointless exercise in stupidity. In reality the crew are also in need to R&R and need to be renewed ones in a while to. Even the most dedicated scientist will have limit on how long they are willing to spend on their jobs, even slaves would need to be replaced as they burn out. Even robotic crew would likely need to be replaced once in a while too.

To take the example of Constructors in DW1... they need to basically head back to a station to get the minerals they need for every project. There is nothing to say that a Constructor is also replacing tools, crew, data, specialists and other stuff in order to preparing for the next project, in essence they are retooling the ship for a specific job. You could say it is necessary for them to get back for every mission in an abstract way for multiple reasons. At the end of the day it is just a mechanic...

Allot of things you are able to do in a game is because of ABSTRACTION, some component in DW1 will upgrade automatically but at some point you need to head back and refit because the new components are too different. This is just an abstraction...

This is a MECHANIC that is part of the game for a reason. It will slow down exploration and put a strain on your logistical planning. It is part of what makes this game different from most other games.

I suppose you have never even tried Aurora 4x?!?... here you need to not just manage fuel but also ship maintenance and crew deployment times... there are practically almost NO components that automatically upgrade. In addition to this you also need to retool every shipyard to produce a specific type of ship (or refit them). This produce a very interesting logistical planning puzzle.
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by Linwood24 »

I seriously do not understand what the issue here is:
5 < 10 < 100
zgrssd
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by zgrssd »

Still think it is a bad and boring idea.. both from game play and realism perspective...
It does sound like it is no longer needed for construction ships. Apparently construction ships are now part of the Private Economy, so the PE-AI can deal with upgrading them.
You suggest that they should be able to have precognitive power to know what resources they will need to do upgrades in the future without acquire the minerals someplace and have all the specialised material and tools to build this new technology.
That would bea really good argument against it, if there weren't 3 other ways to skin that feline:
The only real limitation here is resources: The new component might need resources that you can not get by recycling the old one. There are 3 options to deal with that:
1. Have them go to the nearest base with those resources. Less of a track, but still one.
2. Call a freighter to deliver the missing resources, while flying towards it for a rendevous even in deep space. They already do this in DW1, if they somehow lack resources for a Station (design changed, there was not enough at the stop, etc.)
3. Have them pre-emptively store enough resource to do a full upgrade on the fly. The number of components is more static in DW2, so ship resource costs can not siginifcantly increase on the fly.
4. Their construction equipment can be used to make mining equipment. So why not let them act as a slow form of Miner, so they can go and extract the needed resources themself from stellar objects?
3+4 could even be combined - store in advance, but mine whatever you are missing

ORIGINAL: Linwood24

I seriously do not understand what the issue here is:
5 < 10 < 100
That is definitely my post from this thread, but you remove the quotation tags and did not actually write a reply.
DW2 Poll:
"Should the Civil and non-Combat Ships loose all or most of their weapon slots?"
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=382690
Jorgen_CAB
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Still think it is a bad and boring idea.. both from game play and realism perspective...

In DW:U you could easily automate the retrofit of construction/exploration ship... I assume you could have done that in DW2 if they were state ships too. There really are no real difference other than that you have the option to do it yourself.
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

That would bea really good argument against it, if there weren't 3 other ways to skin that feline:

The only real limitation here is resources: The new component might need resources that you can not get by recycling the old one. There are 3 options to deal with that:
1. Have them go to the nearest base with those resources. Less of a track, but still one.
2. Call a freighter to deliver the missing resources, while flying towards it for a rendevous even in deep space. They already do this in DW1, if they somehow lack resources for a Station (design changed, there was not enough at the stop, etc.)
3. Have them pre-emptively store enough resource to do a full upgrade on the fly. The number of components is more static in DW2, so ship resource costs can not siginifcantly increase on the fly.
4. Their construction equipment can be used to make mining equipment. So why not let them act as a slow form of Miner, so they can go and extract the needed resources themself from stellar objects?
3+4 could even be combined - store in advance, but mine whatever you are missing

In my opinion the whole idea of upgrading itself is from a realistic perspective still absurd... ships just can't build ANYTHING... this is just an abstraction for game-play sake. You can magic it anyway you like that is up to your interpretation of the technology, for me it is not really possible.
In my opinion the ship need to go back to a station to prepare for each job for a reason, not just to get resources, this is a logical as anything else.

At the end of the day it does not matter... refit is part of the game core mechanics so it should stay that way or whatever way it will work in DW2 it will. I think it should matter more not less... but I'm a nerd for such details... ;)
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by U235 »

I believe obsolescence is part of the game. Let me provide an example. Imagine if the USS Constitution "Old Ironsides" were constantly upgraded and was the USA's most technically advance ship today. Would it not seem silly? In fact I'll take it one step further, perhaps there should be a point in DM2 where a ship is no longer a viable candidate for upgrade/refit. This would provide a whole new prospective to fleet planning in a realistic way. My first ship the USS America CV-66 was a great ship (may she rest in peace on the bottom of the Atlantic) but she was worn out from a hard life and skipped/abbreviated maintenance periods. They didn't make more, they made the nuclear powered Nimitz Class which will be around for many more years, but is also being augmented and eventually replaced by the Ford class. I'm not suggesting space vessels in DM2 disappear or become target drones for new, advanced weapons (although the latter might be interesting. Use an old ship as a test bed to test newer systems for an R&D bonus), but that if the player chooses to take an overly aged fleet to war, in might have consequences. Maybe maintenance costs go up with older ships after a period of time, or components fail. It might be too much to ask as it would require keeping track of a huge amount of data. Just think about it, more vessels are lost to the scrap yard or museums than to combat. In or out I'll take my 1000 year old ships into battle with a fresh coat of paint in DM2.
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by USSAmerica »

Hey, U235, as can be seen in my avatar photo, good old CV-66 was my first, and only ship as well. 89 - 93 with the air wing in AIMD. God Bless the USA! [&o]
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U235
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by U235 »

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

Hey, U235, as can be seen in my avatar photo, good old CV-66 was my first, and only ship as well. 89 - 93 with the air wing in AIMD. God Bless the USA! [&o]

I was air department ship’s crew 79-82 and 85-89. Transferred near the beginning of the 89 Med cruise in Rota, just after the explosion in the forward JP-5 pump room. Lost two fellow AB's in the fire. Ironically, I had just walked past the trunk hatch on the forward mess deck 5 minutes earlier. The explosion shot flames from the 8th deck up to the 03 level. Slept in the hanger bay for 3 days until the berthing was repair and power returned. They initially thought the hull was breached due to seawater leaking in, but it turned out to be a ruptured seawater main. Sadly, it wasn't uncommon to lose one or more crew members on deployments back then. Much improved now, but still dangerous environment. Later when onto tours with USS Eisenhower and USS Kearsarge. Got to preform duties as AV-8 Harrier launch officer on the latter which was a hoot. I hear those F-35's practically launch and land vertically by themselves.
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by zgrssd »

Let me provide an example. Imagine if the USS Constitution
Please explain wich part of "Construction and Science ships" you did not understand, that you bring military ships into it.

I am pissed that people on page 2 still do that shit.

I now wrote it clearly at the top of the OP:
I EXPLICITLY AND UNAMBIGIOUSLY SAID THAT THIS DOES NOT ABOUT MILITARY SHIPS. STOP TALKING ABOUT MILITARY SHIPS!
DW2 Poll:
"Should the Civil and non-Combat Ships loose all or most of their weapon slots?"
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=382690
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by Omnius »

Automatic upgrades are for lazy sissies! Why copy a garbage game like Stellaris, another pathetic piece of garbage from paradox. Upgrade at bases is the way to go!
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by USSAmerica »

ORIGINAL: U235

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

Hey, U235, as can be seen in my avatar photo, good old CV-66 was my first, and only ship as well. 89 - 93 with the air wing in AIMD. God Bless the USA! [&o]

I was air department ship’s crew 79-82 and 85-89. Transferred near the beginning of the 89 Med cruise in Rota, just after the explosion in the forward JP-5 pump room. Lost two fellow AB's in the fire. Ironically, I had just walked past the trunk hatch on the forward mess deck 5 minutes earlier. The explosion shot flames from the 8th deck up to the 03 level. Slept in the hanger bay for 3 days until the berthing was repair and power returned. They initially thought the hull was breached due to seawater leaking in, but it turned out to be a ruptured seawater main. Sadly, it wasn't uncommon to lose one or more crew members on deployments back then. Much improved now, but still dangerous environment. Later when onto tours with USS Eisenhower and USS Kearsarge. Got to preform duties as AV-8 Harrier launch officer on the latter which was a hoot. I hear those F-35's practically launch and land vertically by themselves.

If I remember correctly, that pump room explosion was the second day out. My very first time at sea and quite an eye opening experience! Being SeaOpDet in AIMD, my berthing was on the 01 level and my shop was on the 02 level, including the forward mezzanine in the hanger bay. We slept on the mezzanine for those couple of days.

It sounds like we were shipmates for about 2 weeks before Rota.
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by U235 »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Let me provide an example. Imagine if the USS Constitution
Please explain wich part of "Construction and Science ships" you did not understand, that you bring military ships into it.

I am pissed that people on page 2 still do that shit.

I now wrote it clearly at the top of the OP:
I EXPLICITLY AND UNAMBIGIOUSLY SAID THAT THIS DOES NOT ABOUT MILITARY SHIPS. STOP TALKING ABOUT MILITARY SHIPS!

Funny, I don't recall quoting you, so apparently I wasn't interested in your rules for a conversation. A ship is a ship when it comes to maintenance and upgrades, be it weapons or other systems. Do you not believe there were no "research ships" before modern days? Of course mostly military ships did the exploring/researching then. Since we are talking future fantasy, even the star-ship Enterprise, on it's 5 year mission to explore new worlds, had phasers and torpedoes. Apparently you don't know anything about vessels, military or not, and can't stand to hear from someone familiar with many kinds of ships. But I have a tissue for you if you need it. Hope your tantrum eased your suffering and foot stomping. Cheers. [8|]
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by U235 »

It sounds like we were shipmates for about 2 weeks before Rota.

Apparently so. I passed through AIMD (the tunnel) many times and we probably passed each other from time to time. Small world. Cheers to you as well!
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

Post by Strategic Sage »

Imagine if the USS Constitution "Old Ironsides" were constantly upgraded and was the USA's most technically advance ship today. Would it not seem silly? In fact I'll take it one step further, perhaps there should be a point in DM2 where a ship is no longer a viable candidate for upgrade/refit. This would provide a whole new prospective to fleet planning in a realistic way.

It would do that. It would also break AI competitiveness further. Any feature that the AI can't use competently - not perfectly, just competently - is a poorly considered one IMO. A certain level of abstraction is necessary, and in a game as big and complex as DW is, heck any game but esp. in this case, there is limited processing available for AI routines. The more involved these systems are, the more ways there will be for players to exploit suboptimal AI. These types of features make sense for a game like Aurora that is essentially an AAR/story generator. In a fundamentally symmetrical 4X, they are a much bigger problem.
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