Logistics problem

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yutowap33
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Logistics problem

Post by yutowap33 »

I am unable to supply the force down the rail line. The city have a lvl3 rail station but no matter what I do no more than 800 is pushed down the line. Any idea why?
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redrum68
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by redrum68 »

Do you have a rail station at the other end?
yutowap33
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by yutowap33 »

no
redrum68
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by redrum68 »

You need to build a rail station or railhead at the other end of the rail line otherwise only a small percentage of the logistics points flow along it.
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newageofpower
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by newageofpower »

ORIGINAL: yutowap33

no
Read the manual. From page 135:

"However, to properly function, Railroads need to have a beginning and an ending. Rail Station Assets provide
this function, as do Rail Head Assets (2). If there is no ending on a certain
Railroad only 10% of the Rail Logistical Points will be allowed to be “spread
out” over that Railroad, as it the case with our little branch (3)."
yutowap33
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by yutowap33 »

Is there anyway to prioritize asset operation?

Also what is the best way to supply offensive operations over long stretches of land(20+ hexes) on the outskirts of your empire ?
Mina
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by Mina »

ORIGINAL: yutowap33

Is there anyway to prioritize asset operation?

Also what is the best way to supply offensive operations over long stretches of land(20+ hexes) on the outskirts of your empire ?

You can select assets you don't need operating at 100% capacity and reduce their productivity in the bottom left. It's not quite the same but it does help.

The latter question depends on what the weak link in your supply chain is. If you've got logistic points to spare but your units are outside of their operational supply range you need to build roads to extend your supply network. If they're still not getting them after that then you need to increase the action points of your supply network with a supply base, which extends the area that your trucks can cover. If you're finding valuable resources like sources of metal and ruins to scavenge then you could just set up a new city at that location along with truck stops+trainlines. That's helped me a bunch. If you find something nice that's more than 6 tiles away from an existing city then you might as well set up a city that can get taht resource.
yutowap33
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by yutowap33 »

Lets assume that I have enough more than enough resources to achieve any goal. So what would be the best way to supply an advancing army?

1. Truck, Rail or some combination ?
2. If rail, then railheads or rail stations, and how far apart?
3. Should I use any trick to avoid logistical point loss e.g. set rail stations outside the mainline and use traffic sign to avoid AP loss due merge.
You can select assets you don't need operating at 100% capacity and reduce their productivity in the bottom left. It's not quite the same but it does help.

Sure, but this is mainly a reactive measure that allows you to manage resources when you have shortfalls. I want a proactive measure, to designation of a strategic asset to be supplies first no matter what, and if there are no problems than business as usual.
redrum68
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by redrum68 »

There isn't any simple answer or trick really. It all depends how far the army is advancing from the nearest truck depot or rail station. Truck depots and roads are the cheaper so best to use these until they aren't sufficient. If you are going very far distances then you may have to resort to rail. If you have a specific example, it might be easier to post that so folks can comment on what would be ideal.
Mina
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by Mina »

1. Truck, Rail or some combination ?
You'll need a combination of both most likely. Trucks will keep your forces supplied well enough so long as you keep up on extending your roads and occasionally building supply bases to extend their reach, but won't have the capacity to do strategic movement or significant upgrade/replacement of your troops in field. Rails provide massive amounts of logistic points but they don't extend beyond the rail tiles themselves.
2. If rail, then railheads or rail stations, and how far apart?
Rail stations generate the trains that carry supplies and railheads act as terminators for a line. Trains won't run on any line that doesn't have a rail station at both ends, or a rail station on one end and a rail head at the other. However, EVERY tile of a railway line that has trains running on it can dispense supplies at that point. So if you move a unit onto a working rail tile it now gets access to all the logistic points that are being supplied to that railway tile.

A level 1 Train station generates 2000 Rail logistic points and 100 rail AP, so you're capable of moving 2000 points worth of cargo along the rail lines serviced by that station, and up to 25 tiles away (it costs 4 AP for a train to cross a tile). Rail stations will also pool their rail logistics so long as they can reach the same area, two rail stations separated by 25 hexes or less will apply a combined total of 4000 rail logistic points to that line. A rail station that's at the center point of a railway line 50 tiles long (with rail heads at the two ends) will spread its 2000 logistic points along the line according to what is requested at the railheads at each end.
3. Should I use any trick to avoid logistical point loss e.g. set rail stations outside the mainline and use traffic sign to avoid AP loss due merge.
Not that I know of. Generally the logistic network algorithm is good at deciding which roads need to have logistics applied to them based on what it predicts will be needed next turn, but you can get tripped up if you suddenly cram units into an area that it didn't assign sufficient logistic points to the previous turn. It also can't predict that you might want to do a ton of strategic movement or reinforcement in an area.
Sure, but this is mainly a reactive measure that allows you to manage resources when you have shortfalls. I want a proactive measure, to designation of a strategic asset to be supplies first no matter what, and if there are no problems than business as usual.
There's nothing like that in the game yet sorry. Predicting next turn's resource usage or construction progress is unfortunately very difficult a lot of the time.
yutowap33
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by yutowap33 »

delete
Mina
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by Mina »

Another thing that can help is turning on the "Operational Logistics" view mode, which will color tiles according to how easy it is for units to get its supplies from the nearest road tile. Green means that a unit can get 100% of its requested supplies from the nearest point, so long as there's enough logistic points for it supplies to be delivered to that point. The shade will change to yellow, orange, and then black, as the units ability to pick up supplies degrades, depending on either the distance to the nearest supplied tile or due to rough terrain.
yutowap33
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by yutowap33 »

You'll need a combination of both most likely. Trucks will keep your forces supplied well enough so long as you keep up on extending your roads and occasionally building supply bases to extend their reach, but won't have the capacity to do strategic movement or significant upgrade/replacement of your troops in field.

Have you made use of such combination in such scenario i.e. supply of large force (almost regiment size) over a long distance(20+ tiles)

So far I found very little use for truck depots outside of early game and remote territories mop up.
Rails provide massive amounts of logistic points but they don't extend beyond the rail tiles themselves.

Not sure about that, but considering that building rails over roads is cheaper, you'd always have road+rail combination, so in effect its the same 4-8 range.
up to 25 tiles away (it costs 4 AP for a train to cross a tile)

Thanks, that would be useful.
Not that I know of. Generally the logistic network algorithm[..]

See subforum 'war room' ->thread 'Yet another logistics tutorial', post #13. It explains a trick to avoid loosing AP when using railstations closeby. (can't post the post link cause I am new)
AgentFransis
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by AgentFransis »

When you reach the max range of what truck stations + supply depot can supply you have two basic choices:
1. Build new truck station up the road accepting the admin efficiency hit.
2. Colonize a new town to house the truck station.

If you still have a long way to go before conquering some civilization a town is your best bet. If you just need one truck station as a logistical bridge to reach the next town then just build it and mothball it later.
zgrssd
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: yutowap33

Lets assume that I have enough more than enough resources to achieve any goal. So what would be the best way to supply an advancing army?

1. Truck, Rail or some combination ?
2. If rail, then railheads or rail stations, and how far apart?
3. Should I use any trick to avoid logistical point loss e.g. set rail stations outside the mainline and use traffic sign to avoid AP loss due merge.
1. A combination. The main problem is range/AP useage. Logistics assets can "refocus" incomming points, resetting the AP used - but you have a percentile decrease each time it is refocussed after the first.
Trucks are good at distributing stuff locally, but are very bad over long distances. More then 25 hexes is borderline impossible without a additional asset.
Railways are unbeatable at range. 100 Hex range is trivial for them. But unless the troops can send their people to grab food right from the station or tracks, they will not get any supply.

I like to look at the Roman System as what to go for:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1Vo8VnazNw
Your SHQ is the Strategic Base
The city where your trainline ends but trucks start is the operatinal base
Tactical bases are not actually modelled/folded into the Operational Supply Range extension for units

2. When I do go rail, I try to put at least 1 T1 Raisltation into every city. This will create a "aorta" of Supplies, totally taking the load of the Truck System.
If I ever do place them in the wild, this is because there propably will be a city there in the future.

3. Not realy, consider them advanced topics. One T1 Station in every city (and especialy under the SHQ) will solve most of the problem. As a general rule Upgrading a asset is way more efficient in workers and Upkeep then adding more assets.
DW2 Poll:
"Should the Civil and non-Combat Ships loose all or most of their weapon slots?"
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=382690
DTurtle
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by DTurtle »

ORIGINAL: yutowap33

Lets assume that I have enough more than enough resources to achieve any goal. So what would be the best way to supply an advancing army?

1. Truck, Rail or some combination ?
Depends on the distance. Trucks can go a long, long way - remember you don't need 100% of the logistical points to reach the front, you need enough to supply your units. In addition, a unit's supply line can go some hexes back (~5) in order to get supplies. A lvl 3 truck station (110 AP *2 = 22 hexes) plus a lvl 1 supply depot (50 AP = 5 hexes) can supply units up to 30 or so hexes away from the last time the AP got refocused. That's quite a good distance.
And that is with dirt roads. With sealed roads that increases to: 110AP = 30 hexes, 50 AP = 7 hexes, +7 hexes intrinsic = 44 hexes.

In most games supplying units only with truck points was more than enough. I do have two games going right now where the front is simply too far away (and no cities in between) where I actually am using rail to supply parts of the front.
2. If rail, then railheads or rail stations, and how far apart?
A rail head near the front. They get built in a single turn. You can build multiple rail heads as your front advances and simply close or mothball the old ones. Again, note that you do no need to get 100% of rail points to the front. That means that a Rail station lvl 1 (100 AP) can get supply to units up to 55 hexes away.
3. Should I use any trick to avoid logistical point loss e.g. set rail stations outside the mainline and use traffic sign to avoid AP loss due merge.
I haven't really seen this be necessary. Overall, units don't use up THAT much logistical points. Fuel is free, ammo is free once you have energy weapons, so only food and reinforcements (by the SHQ as well as strategic movement of other units) are left after that.
Sure, but this is mainly a reactive measure that allows you to manage resources when you have shortfalls. I want a proactive measure, to designation of a strategic asset to be supplies first no matter what, and if there are no problems than business as usual.
If you have a road line that goes to the front, which has no cities on it - then all logistical points on that line can only be used by the units at the front. In the logistics tutorial thread I posted how I use it to guarantee stuff reaching the front by bypassing cities.
Theoretically, you could also play around with the SHQ logistics limits, but you should be very careful doing that. I posted a few thoughts and tips about that as well.
compactset
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by compactset »

Not to open another thread, I also would like to ask you about the following matter regarding logistic here.
The problem is the following: I simply want to redirect the logistic points of my rail network in one direction, to do this I simply put a sign where the rail line diverges so the rail points coming from my capitol are sent preferabily to the other direction without any sign. But the points previewed by the system tell me that I would get less points in such direction next turn. Here are the screens
Image
Image
Image
The hex where I am putting the sign is the one selected, directly north of my capitol. I want to sent most of the logistic to the N-E direction, but if I put a restriction on the rail going to West then the game computes less available points going to NE next turn.

I tried to modify the traffic signs already plenty of time, and it worked as intended. So it should not be a a bug but rather there is some complication which I am not expecting. On the West there is another city with a rail station level 2, while on the E a city with a level 2 magnetic line station. So it is not a problem regarding the absence of a train station or train head at one of the terminal points of the rail. What could it be?
yutowap33
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by yutowap33 »

A rail head near the front. They get built in a single turn. You can build multiple rail heads as your front advances and simply close or mothball the old ones.

Yeah fast and cheap was exactly why I choose this solution. It also don't rely on fuel so less chance for unexpected breakdown in supply.

ORIGINAL: DTurtle
In most games supplying units only with truck points was more than enough.

weird, that hasn't been my experience. In my early games, I tried nationalizing and upgrading truck stations, until I realized how limited the are on large scale, both in terms of throughput and management hell. Now I still build them as needed, but they are mainly an early on gap measure until I can establish a rail network.

I suppose this can be heavily dependent on things like terrain e.g. jungles made made my life hell early on. Still I am having hard time imaging an empire with more than handful cities relying on trucks.
I haven't really seen this be necessary. Overall, units don't use up THAT much logistical points. Fuel is free, ammo is free once you have energy weapons, so only food and reinforcements (by the SHQ as well as strategic movement of other units) are left after that.

True, this mainly something for heavy duty mainline connection, still I find such solution can be very useful (Btw you can't do it with trucks because of the fuel requirements ;) )

Anyway, thanks for the very useful guide and trick, keep them coming!
DTurtle
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by DTurtle »

ORIGINAL: compactset
The hex where I am putting the sign is the one selected, directly north of my capitol. I want to sent most of the logistic to the N-E direction, but if I put a restriction on the rail going to West then the game computes less available points going to NE next turn.

I tried to modify the traffic signs already plenty of time, and it worked as intended. So it should not be a a bug but rather there is some complication which I am not expecting. On the West there is another city with a rail station level 2, while on the E a city with a level 2 magnetic line station. So it is not a problem regarding the absence of a train station or train head at one of the terminal points of the rail. What could it be?
Hard to say just from the screenshots. Are there any traffic signs in the SHQ hex? There could also be some shenanigans going on with pull points or similar. One thing I've noticed is that using traffic signs that block everything can have interesting effects down the line with regards to other traffic signs blocking everything except pull points.
What I do in cases like that is try to remove as many traffic signs as possible. Also blocking only 95% of the points instead of 100% often avoids those weird effects happening.
ORIGINAL: yutowap33

weird, that hasn't been my experience. In my early games, I tried nationalizing and upgrading truck stations, until I realized how limited the are on large scale, both in terms of throughput and management hell. Now I still build them as needed, but they are mainly an early on gap measure until I can establish a rail network.

I suppose this can be heavily dependent on things like terrain e.g. jungles made made my life hell early on. Still I am having hard time imaging an empire with more than handful cities relying on trucks.
I was focusing specifically on supplying units. Supplying cities is obviously very different. Supplying several brigades of tanks and infantry with trucks is very much possible and easy. I will add a small note: for long distance supplies, even a rail line without a rail head can be useful, as 10% of points still move down that line - and fuel (and energy) is free!
compactset
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RE: Logistics problem

Post by compactset »

ORIGINAL: DTurtle
Hard to say just from the screenshots. Are there any traffic signs in the SHQ hex? There could also be some shenanigans going on with pull points or similar. One thing I've noticed is that using traffic signs that block everything can have interesting effects down the line with regards to other traffic signs blocking everything except pull points.
What I do in cases like that is try to remove as many traffic signs as possible. Also blocking only 95% of the points instead of 100% often avoids those weird effects happening.
The sign on the capital are the ones in the third picture. I am only blocking the flow of logistic points on the sides, so they go only North or South.
I tried to put a sign for 60%-80% in the hex above the capital and that strange effect appears. Both towns at the two ends of the rail are not dead roads but have other roads where the logistic can flow, so there should not be problem like the system ignoring my signs not to have points wasted.

The problem is not actually crucial since I won the game 10 turns ago but I wanted to understand what is happening.
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