[1.07.01] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

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Akrakorn
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[1.07.01] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by Akrakorn »

I admit this is may not be a bug but a failure of understanding on my part, but I've been trying to limit the point usage of Zone => SHQ to give priority to my replacements, but the SHQ simply refuses to accept it. You can even see that in the first image, it has used 20533 logistical points out of the maximum 4978 allowed.

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zgrssd
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by zgrssd »

I am 90% sure the SHQ does two passes - once with the limtis and once without the limits, in case there is logistics points left over.
That way to strict limits can not result in wasted points.
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Akrakorn
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by Akrakorn »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

I am 90% sure the SHQ does two passes - once with the limtis and once without the limits, in case there is logistics points left over.
That way to strict limits can not result in wasted points.

The problem is that it is not doing the first pass with replacements; it just never gets there, instead all points are spent into Zone -> SHQ.
zgrssd
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by zgrssd »

Analysis:
- You got a massive bottleneck towards units. Only 2/3 of the supplies and 0% of the reinforcements made it through
- You need way more Logistics leftover for Zone deliveies. You need at least twice as much as your current limit
- You need way more Logistics leftover for Zone retreival as well. You need fours times as much as your current limit
I guess you went conquering and just overestimated how much building in the wake off your troops would tax your logistics.
You need to stop expanding. Possibly even fall back onto defensible/easier supplied terrain.
You definitely have a bottleneck towards your troops. But overall your logstics is overtaxes as well. Hopefully one upgrade will be enough to work off any piled up orders. You should post some screenshots in the main forum of SE so we can help.
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jimwinsor
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by jimwinsor »

I had pretty much the same issue. It seems the replacement pass isn’t happening right away:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4937329
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Akrakorn
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by Akrakorn »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Analysis:
- You got a massive bottleneck towards units. Only 2/3 of the supplies and 0% of the reinforcements made it through
- You need way more Logistics leftover for Zone deliveies. You need at least twice as much as your current limit
- You need way more Logistics leftover for Zone retreival as well. You need fours times as much as your current limit
I guess you went conquering and just overestimated how much building in the wake off your troops would tax your logistics.
You need to stop expanding. Possibly even fall back onto defensible/easier supplied terrain.
You definitely have a bottleneck towards your troops. But overall your logstics is overtaxes as well. Hopefully one upgrade will be enough to work off any piled up orders. You should post some screenshots in the main forum of SE so we can help.

All of this is pretty much irrelevant.

In that current turn, I had 24891 logistical points available. Out of all these, because of the logistics limitations, the points should be distributed like this in the first pass:
-7467 (30%) to SHQ -> Zone
-7467 (30%) to SHQ -> Unit
-4978 (20%) to Zone -> SHQ
-4978 (20%) to Replacements

You can even see the max points allowed in the first image; however, the game is not registering the limitation and is sending 20533 points to Zone -> SHQ instead of the 4978 max allowed, meaning there are no points left for replacements.
AgentFransis
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by AgentFransis »

The SHQ is not ignoring the limit. It distributes the points in order of priority from top to bottom. So first it sent all the stuff it needed to the zones. Then it tried to send supplies to your units but there's a bottleneck somewhere in the network so it only managed to deliver 2/3 of the supplies. Then it got stuff from the zones up to the limit and then it tried to send replacements, but since all available logistics points to your troops were already used for supplies none were left over for replacements. Then it used all the remaining points it had to get some more stuff from the zones.
zgrssd
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: Akrakorn

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Analysis:
- You got a massive bottleneck towards units. Only 2/3 of the supplies and 0% of the reinforcements made it through
- You need way more Logistics leftover for Zone deliveies. You need at least twice as much as your current limit
- You need way more Logistics leftover for Zone retreival as well. You need fours times as much as your current limit
I guess you went conquering and just overestimated how much building in the wake off your troops would tax your logistics.
You need to stop expanding. Possibly even fall back onto defensible/easier supplied terrain.
You definitely have a bottleneck towards your troops. But overall your logstics is overtaxes as well. Hopefully one upgrade will be enough to work off any piled up orders. You should post some screenshots in the main forum of SE so we can help.

All of this is pretty much irrelevant.

In that current turn, I had 24891 logistical points available. Out of all these, because of the logistics limitations, the points should be distributed like this in the first pass:
-7467 (30%) to SHQ -> Zone
-7467 (30%) to SHQ -> Unit
-4978 (20%) to Zone -> SHQ
-4978 (20%) to Replacements

You can even see the max points allowed in the first image; however, the game is not registering the limitation and is sending 20533 points to Zone -> SHQ instead of the 4978 max allowed, meaning there are no points left for replacements.
The points you had assigned on the SHQ are irrelevant for the unit side. There is at least one hex between the SHQ and the Units that only had 2189 Logistics availible after Zone deliveries.

This bottleneck Hex should easily be finable via the Bottleneck display.
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jimwinsor
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by jimwinsor »

No, what zgrssd said is probably correct, the over the limit logistics on Zone => SHQ is happening on the second pass through, not the first. What’s likely happening is that the first pass through (which obeyed the limits) didn’t include the reinforcement deliveries, for some reason. So then on the second pass all the remaining points got dumped onto Zone => SHQ.

So the real mystery is why the reinforcements got skipped on the first pass through. Zgrssd lays out some viable theories on why that didn’t happen in your case. But in my case, I’m almost 100% sure my relevant ground units were in supply.
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Akrakorn
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by Akrakorn »

The only bottleneck is right next to the SHQ, and that's where the highest amount of logistical points are available (around 28000 in this turn). The north is pretty much the same, the maximum is yellow. All ground units are in supply range, those in the north do not need replacements. The ones that do need them are in the west.

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zgrssd
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: Akrakorn

The only bottleneck is right next to the SHQ, and that's where the highest amount of logistical points are available (around 28000 in this turn). The north is pretty much the same, the maximum is yellow. All ground units are in supply range, those in the north do not need replacements. The ones that do need them are in the west.

Image

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Your Bottleneck is right at the SHQ, it seems. If that part is the weakest, that means you have to upgrade it's Logistics.
First the Zone Deliveries with limits happen
Second, Unit delivieres happen. I am going to go out on a limb and say the issue is the western front. You got a lot of untis there with contact to the enemy, so this is where fighting is happening. So I guess the North/Western way out of the city runs out of logistics.
So Zone Retreival, replacements and the 2nd pass without limits can only happen with the eastern part of th empire, until that too develops the bottleneck Southeast of the SHQ. But by that time, most of the LOogistics to the east happened.

At lest 1 upgrade of the SHQ Truckstop is nessesary. However it might be better to start using some railway lines. One line to a city in the East should fix it, sidestepping the need to use roads for the first half.
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Akrakorn
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by Akrakorn »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
ORIGINAL: Akrakorn

The only bottleneck is right next to the SHQ, and that's where the highest amount of logistical points are available (around 28000 in this turn). The north is pretty much the same, the maximum is yellow. All ground units are in supply range, those in the north do not need replacements. The ones that do need them are in the west.

Image

Image
Your Bottleneck is right at the SHQ, it seems. If that part is the weakest, that means you have to upgrade it's Logistics.
First the Zone Deliveries with limits happen
Second, Unit delivieres happen. I am going to go out on a limb and say the issue is the western front. You got a lot of untis there with contact to the enemy, so this is where fighting is happening. So I guess the North/Western way out of the city runs out of logistics.
So Zone Retreival, replacements and the 2nd pass without limits can only happen with the eastern part of th empire, until that too develops the bottleneck Southeast of the SHQ. But by that time, most of the LOogistics to the east happened.

At lest 1 upgrade of the SHQ Truckstop is nessesary. However it might be better to start using some railway lines. One line to a city in the East should fix it, sidestepping the need to use roads for the first half.

The SHQ part is the strongest with around 28000 logistical points and is using railways, the entire city network is railway going from one end to the other.

There is no fighting yet, not on the eastern front and not on the western front. There are no other bottlenecks aside from the one at the SHQ.

Of course more logistical points are going to solve everything, but the point is that it should not be sidestepping replacements when it is possible for it to send them.
zgrssd
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: Akrakorn

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
ORIGINAL: Akrakorn

The only bottleneck is right next to the SHQ, and that's where the highest amount of logistical points are available (around 28000 in this turn). The north is pretty much the same, the maximum is yellow. All ground units are in supply range, those in the north do not need replacements. The ones that do need them are in the west.

Image

Image
Your Bottleneck is right at the SHQ, it seems. If that part is the weakest, that means you have to upgrade it's Logistics.
First the Zone Deliveries with limits happen
Second, Unit delivieres happen. I am going to go out on a limb and say the issue is the western front. You got a lot of untis there with contact to the enemy, so this is where fighting is happening. So I guess the North/Western way out of the city runs out of logistics.
So Zone Retreival, replacements and the 2nd pass without limits can only happen with the eastern part of th empire, until that too develops the bottleneck Southeast of the SHQ. But by that time, most of the LOogistics to the east happened.

At lest 1 upgrade of the SHQ Truckstop is nessesary. However it might be better to start using some railway lines. One line to a city in the East should fix it, sidestepping the need to use roads for the first half.

The SHQ part is the strongest with around 28000 logistical points and is using railways, the entire city network is railway going from one end to the other.

There is no fighting yet, not on the eastern front and not on the western front. There are no other bottlenecks aside from the one at the SHQ.

Of course more logistical points are going to solve everything, but the point is that it should not be sidestepping replacements when it is possible for it to send them.
It does not sidestep replacement.

Replacements and Supplies use exactly the same roads/raillines.
If supplies is only 2/3 finished, that is because they literally ran out of Logistics points.
If Logistics to the units already hits 0 during supply, there is nothing left for Replacements either.
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Akrakorn
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by Akrakorn »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

ORIGINAL: Akrakorn

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


Your Bottleneck is right at the SHQ, it seems. If that part is the weakest, that means you have to upgrade it's Logistics.
First the Zone Deliveries with limits happen
Second, Unit delivieres happen. I am going to go out on a limb and say the issue is the western front. You got a lot of untis there with contact to the enemy, so this is where fighting is happening. So I guess the North/Western way out of the city runs out of logistics.
So Zone Retreival, replacements and the 2nd pass without limits can only happen with the eastern part of th empire, until that too develops the bottleneck Southeast of the SHQ. But by that time, most of the LOogistics to the east happened.

At lest 1 upgrade of the SHQ Truckstop is nessesary. However it might be better to start using some railway lines. One line to a city in the East should fix it, sidestepping the need to use roads for the first half.

The SHQ part is the strongest with around 28000 logistical points and is using railways, the entire city network is railway going from one end to the other.

There is no fighting yet, not on the eastern front and not on the western front. There are no other bottlenecks aside from the one at the SHQ.

Of course more logistical points are going to solve everything, but the point is that it should not be sidestepping replacements when it is possible for it to send them.
It does not sidestep replacement.

Replacements and Supplies use exactly the same roads/raillines.
If supplies is only 2/3 finished, that is because they literally ran out of Logistics points.
If Logistics to the units already hits 0 during supply, there is nothing left for Replacements either.

If the only bottleneck is in the SHQ, and there is a limitation of 30% logistic points on both units and zone supply, it should get to the replacement part without running out of logistics points first.
zgrssd
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by zgrssd »

If the only bottleneck is in the SHQ, and there is a limitation of 30% logistic points on both units and zone supply, it should get to the replacement part without running out of logistics points first.
What???

Again:
- It does Zone Deliveries
- It does Unit deliveries, but runs out of Logistics at 2189/3094 or 2722/3034
- Ir does Zone retreival, but it is out of Logistics
- It does Unit Replacements, but is out of Logistics

2nd pass without Limits:
- It does Zone Deliveries without Limits, but is out of Logistics
- It does Unit Deliveries without Limits, but is out of Logistics
- It does Zone Reteival without Limits, but is out of Logistics
- It does Replacement without Limits, but is out of Logistics
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redrum68
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by redrum68 »

Can you try setting SHQ > Unit to 0% and Zone > SHQ to 0% then see if you get replacements? This should show whether the logistics to units runs out during the earlier phases therefore not leaving anything for replacements.
Akrakorn
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by Akrakorn »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
If the only bottleneck is in the SHQ, and there is a limitation of 30% logistic points on both units and zone supply, it should get to the replacement part without running out of logistics points first.
What???

Again:
- It does Zone Deliveries
- It does Unit deliveries, but runs out of Logistics at 2189/3094 or 2722/3034
- Ir does Zone retreival, but it is out of Logistics
- It does Unit Replacements, but is out of Logistics

2nd pass without Limits:
- It does Zone Deliveries without Limits, but is out of Logistics
- It does Unit Deliveries without Limits, but is out of Logistics
- It does Zone Reteival without Limits, but is out of Logistics
- It does Replacement without Limits, but is out of Logistics

No:
- It does Zone Deliveries succesfully.
- It does Unit deliveries, but it doesn't run out of logistics, rather it cannot reach certain units that are at the north as they are out of supply range (and those are irrelevant for replacements, as I want to send replacements to those on the West). If it had run out of logistics here, it would have 0 logistics for Zone retrieval.
- It does Zone retrieval, and it doesn't have enough logistics points to do it all. Instead of just going to the max of 5938, it does 25037, ignoring the supply limit.
- It does Unit Replacements, but is out of Logistics as it spent all of its logistics on Zone retrieval.

Do you see how the SHQ -> Zone uses 3341 points, and SHQ -> Unit uses 1311? 4751 points are not enough to cause a bottleneck in a place where there's 29689 points total.
ORIGINAL: redrum68
Can you try setting SHQ > Unit to 0% and Zone > SHQ to 0% then see if you get replacements? This should show whether the logistics to units runs out during the earlier phases therefore not leaving anything for replacements.
I could try, unfortunately this is a multiplayer match so I'd be shooting myself in the foot for a couple of turns.
zgrssd
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by zgrssd »

Do you see how the SHQ -> Zone uses 3341 points, and SHQ -> Unit uses 1311? 4751 points are not enough to cause a bottleneck in a place where there's 29689 points total.
30k for all directions together.
Split over 6 directions by the pull point system, wich is in part based on the previous turns draw.
By simple math, that leaves on average 4948 per for each direction.

Example:
If you got 29689 Logsitcs under the SHQ.
The 5 other directions need 24938.
That leaves 4751 for that direction.

The end result is still the same: "Boss, we simply do not have enough trucks/trains to fullfill all the demand!"
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Akrakorn
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by Akrakorn »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Do you see how the SHQ -> Zone uses 3341 points, and SHQ -> Unit uses 1311? 4751 points are not enough to cause a bottleneck in a place where there's 29689 points total.
30k for all directions together.
Split over 6 directions by the pull point system, wich is in part based on the previous turns draw.
By simple math, that leaves on average 4948 per for each direction.

Example:
If you got 29689 Logsitcs under the SHQ.
The 5 other directions need 24938.
That leaves 4751 for that direction.

The end result is still the same: "Boss, we simply do not have enough trucks/trains to fullfill all the demand!"

No, the railway system is pretty much a line with the "6 directions" feeding into this single line, you can see it has used 28349 logistic points that turn on that single direction. The cities are surrounded by railway stations that feed into the main line. I use traffic signs to block logistic points from feeding into the single-hex railstations, so the logistic points DO NOT get split. There is no railway station in the city itself, so the points do not get refocused.

Yes, of course the end result is "more logistic points are required"; that's not the point of this thread or the bug report. The point is that from these points available, I want to ensure that in the first pass only 30% of them are used for Zone sends, 30% for units, 20% for retrievals and 20% for replacements. The limitations are being ignored.

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zgrssd
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RE: [1.07.02] SHQ Ignores logistics limitations

Post by zgrssd »

No, the railway system is pretty much a line with the "6 directions" feeding into this single line, you can see it has used 28349 logistic points that turn on that single direction. The cities are surrounded by railway stations that feed into the main line. I use traffic signs to block logistic points from feeding into the single-hex railstations, so the logistic points DO NOT get split.
Those numbers do not add up:
If one direction has 28349 and the other has 9279 the SHQ should have 37628 total logistics from Railway alone!
As it only has 29689 and 28349 go west, that means there is only a connection of 1340 going to that first hex going east.

You somehow cut the railline comming from the east. Game propably has to use the lower 10% of capacity or trucks to move goods to the station literally one hex outside the city.
I would guess it is that 95% block on a main artery, set to also affect pull points!
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