Swapping units in place

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havoc1371
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Swapping units in place

Post by havoc1371 »

The feature of swapping units using the shift key is handy for repeated assaults, or to move a unit to the rear for refit and recovery, but it does allow unrealistic swaps like an air unit and HQ. I think that air units swapping hexes with non air units is unrealistic. It makes it possible to carry a HQ or an army over hexes normally not passible to them by having air units in an adjacent hex swap them right through it. I can have an HQ that can't move on a certain mountain road move through by landing an air, swap hexes, then having another air swap again... moving the HQ move two hexes through terrain it couldn't move into on its own. Same with an armor unit.

I suggest that air units shouldn't be able to "swap" with ground units.
Marcinos1985
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RE: Swapping units in place

Post by Marcinos1985 »

That's true, planes due to plenty AP's can get into many places easily and then swap with army/HQ, giving them access to 'hard-to-get-to' hexes. In China for example, it's probably the fastest way to get an HQ to the south. For some reason they start without one there, and in effect Changsha often falls even in 1939/early 1940, when IRL it was in 1944 - but I digress.

But your solution is very harsh. Especially on fronts with high density of units such a restriction would force players to solve placement puzzles each turn.
I would rather see something like this - if units can't get to a hex normally, it shouldn't be allowed to swap in there too. Would this work, or do I miss something?



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havoc1371
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RE: Swapping units in place

Post by havoc1371 »

I believe certain units cannot move on certain roads and terrain deliberately because they wouldn't have that capability based upon road and terrain restrictions. Using air to swap them over an obstacle defeats this game feature and is gamey. I've done it myself, but I find that it is not realistic. A fighter "wing" has no capability to assist an armored corps to climb over a mountain.
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ElvisJJonesRambo
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RE: Swapping units in place

Post by ElvisJJonesRambo »

Disagree. Gotta let players have some flexibility. If you want historical everything, Germans lose every time and Japs munch some nukes. Just wait until you make a dumb move with it :)

The Air swap move, think of it as localized supply drop :)

If you disagree that's fine. Then I'd argue for overstacking air on top of ground.

Also, should air be allowed in "any hex"? Air shouldn't be in mountains. How about adding Air fields?
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Pocus
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RE: Swapping units in place

Post by Pocus »

Yes true, the game system has its quirks, we must live with it. I appreciate a lot the game system and the general settings, but the non stacking rule is bearing a bit on me, it feels I'm playing '15-puzzle' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_puzzle) at time (named 'jeu du taquin' in French). That would be ok if the scale was bigger, but in WaW, when you have to choose if you put a plane or a garrison in a one-hex island ... mmmh.
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ElvisJJonesRambo
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RE: Swapping units in place

Post by ElvisJJonesRambo »

Yeah, Island Fighting / Defense could use facelift.
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Pocus
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RE: Swapping units in place

Post by Pocus »

You might remember some old paper wargames where only one big unit was allowed, but you could stack a support or air with them. It was a kind of semi-stacking rule.
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OldCrowBalthazor
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RE: Swapping units in place

Post by OldCrowBalthazor »

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Disagree. Gotta let players have some flexibility. If you want historical everything, Germans lose every time and Japs munch some nukes. Just wait until you make a dumb move with it :)

The Air swap move, think of it as localized supply drop :)

If you disagree that's fine. Then I'd argue for overstacking air on top of ground.

Also, should air be allowed in "any hex"? Air shouldn't be in mountains. How about adding Air fields?

I agree with this...

btw, its the only way I can get a Chinese HQ down the to the south those first few turns early game. It felt a bit gamey I but tried to tell myself they were helping by carrying the baggage and scouting the mountain trails the Hq staff would have to hump haha.
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Tanaka
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RE: Swapping units in place

Post by Tanaka »

ORIGINAL: havoc1371

The feature of swapping units using the shift key is handy for repeated assaults, or to move a unit to the rear for refit and recovery, but it does allow unrealistic swaps like an air unit and HQ. I think that air units swapping hexes with non air units is unrealistic. It makes it possible to carry a HQ or an army over hexes normally not passible to them by having air units in an adjacent hex swap them right through it. I can have an HQ that can't move on a certain mountain road move through by landing an air, swap hexes, then having another air swap again... moving the HQ move two hexes through terrain it couldn't move into on its own. Same with an armor unit.

I suggest that air units shouldn't be able to "swap" with ground units.

Interesting trick! I keep learning more and more of these haha. Hmmm you make a good point...
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Tanaka
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RE: Swapping units in place

Post by Tanaka »

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Disagree. Gotta let players have some flexibility. If you want historical everything, Germans lose every time and Japs munch some nukes. Just wait until you make a dumb move with it :)

The Air swap move, think of it as localized supply drop :)

If you disagree that's fine. Then I'd argue for overstacking air on top of ground.

Also, should air be allowed in "any hex"? Air shouldn't be in mountains. How about adding Air fields?

I agree with this...

btw, its the only way I can get a Chinese HQ down the to the south those first few turns early game. It felt a bit gamey I but tried to tell myself they were helping by carrying the baggage and scouting the mountain trails the Hq staff would have to hump haha.

Now I know why your China defense was so much better than everyone else's! [:D]
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LoneRunner
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RE: Swapping units in place

Post by LoneRunner »

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

That's true, planes due to plenty AP's can get into many places easily and then swap with army/HQ, giving them access to 'hard-to-get-to' hexes. In China for example, it's probably the fastest way to get an HQ to the south. For some reason they start without one there, and in effect Changsha often falls even in 1939/early 1940, when IRL it was in 1944 - but I digress.

Wow, thanks Marcinos. I never thought of using a plane to move the Chinese HQ. Strategies like these separate the top players from the rest of us. I don't consider swaps with planes unfair. Learning new strategies and taking advantage of imaginative ideas is what makes this game great.

Anyway, I decided to test different methods of moving the Chinese HQ to the south. China only has one plane, so the best you can do is move one extra hex a turn.

On the first Allied turn China's HQ's are in the north and the biggest threat is in the south.


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LoneRunner
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RE: Swapping units in place

Post by LoneRunner »

Typically I ran the most northern HQ south. Took about 6 months to get into the action. Too late to save Nanning.

With the plane switching strategy I decided to leave Peng in the north, move Zhu to the middle, and move Xue to the southern front.

First step, move Zhu one hex south. That uses 2 movement points. With 1 movement point left, Zhu can do a swap.





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LoneRunner
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RE: Swapping units in place

Post by LoneRunner »

Next I moved the Chinese plane to the hex south of Zhu.



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LoneRunner
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RE: Swapping units in place

Post by LoneRunner »

Then swap Zhu and the plane. Notice Zhu is now in position to support most of the units in both the Sian and Ichang fronts.



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LoneRunner
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RE: Swapping units in place

Post by LoneRunner »

Then move Peng east of Sian and rush Xue south as fast as you can. Within a couple turns Xue can support the southern front.

Well I hope this demo helps the rest of us to compete with the top players. If you have a better plan, please let me know.

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OldCrowBalthazor
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RE: Swapping units in place

Post by OldCrowBalthazor »

That's it, Grasshopper!

Also, you may want to 'ground' that fighter so it can be used in the future. Those Japanese CV's and other aircraft in theater will shred your Flying Tigers.

Alas, in a hard fought early campaign against Tanaka's Japanese aggressors, with an HQ down near Nanning, I was almost able to pin these usurpers on the coast, besiege Canton, link up with neutral Hong Kong thereby isolating his southern wing, and almost took Amoy.

My Chinese had to fall back in relatively good order under his withering airpower from the sea, but it did frustrate his nefarious plans for China.

My fighter wing finally was destroyed by these monsters, after it help switch/shift a mauled but valiant Chinese Army to the rear of the line. It was glorious, because I could feel the consternation from Tokyo (and thus, Tanaka) at that time.
LoneRunner
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RE: Swapping units in place

Post by LoneRunner »

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

That's it, Grasshopper!

Also, you may want to 'ground' that fighter so it can be used in the future. Those Japanese CV's and other aircraft in theater will shred your Flying Tigers.

Alas, in a hard fought early campaign against Tanaka's Japanese aggressors, with an HQ down near Nanning, I was almost able to pin these usurpers on the coast, besiege Canton, link up with neutral Hong Kong thereby isolating his southern wing, and almost took Amoy.

My Chinese had to fall back in relatively good order under his withering airpower from the sea, but it did frustrate his nefarious plans for China.

My fighter wing finally was destroyed by these monsters, after it help switch/shift a mauled but valiant Chinese Army to the rear of the line. It was glorious, because I could feel the consternation from Tokyo (and thus, Tanaka) at that time.

Haha, thanks OldCrow. And I appreciate the advice on grounding my fighter.
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