Provoking the Italians into war

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havoc1371
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Provoking the Italians into war

Post by havoc1371 »

So I suggested a while back that diplomatic penalties be placed in the game to deter players from having Allied ships buzzing Italian ports to locate their fleets and having amphibious troops from sitting off Italy, waiting for it to declare war and instantly knock its morale down 30+ points. These were implemented, but I didn't realize (I should have) that gamers would find away to use this. So now players will buzz the Italian ports to provoke it into declaring war in the first few turns of the game so they can avoid having to declare war and face diplomatic penalties for the Allies being the aggressor and disrupt Italy's historic build up to war. While some may not agree, I think this is gamey and should have penalties.

So now I am suggesting that the diplomatic penalties for declaring war on Italy before they go to war be implemented in increments, for each turn the Allied player violates Italian waters. Example: If the British/French navies place ships next to Italian ports and/or have AV/AVL's within landing range of Italian mainland, then in addition to raising Italy's diplomatic status, the other countries that would have been effected by a DOW against Italy should have some of that diplomatic effect for each turn the Allies trigger the Italian penalties.

Trying to prevent players from manipulating the AI to get an advantage over their opponents is like playing "whack a mole". Some folks may think that all's fair, but I play this game for the historical context, and actions that stray too far from historical reality trash that feel of the game. Or does anyone think that British and French warships sitting off Italian ports in September 1939 would be something the British and French would even have contemplated, given the war with German just started? Or been acceptable to other neutral nations? I don't think so.

You can't prevent everything unrealistic in the game because of the foreknowledge of events, but we can try to honor the historical thread by avoiding the most egregious deviations. I look at what I plan to do and determine if it was feasible and possible for it to happen. If you are doing it because you know it will trigger a certain advantage from the AI, then you probably shouldn't be doing it. I like to win like anyone else, but not at the cost of enjoying the historical framework of the game.
taffjones
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RE: Provoking the Italians into war

Post by taffjones »

Hi Havoc1371

This has been discussed, not sure how to post a link but it is on page 2 of the forum threads titled Italy joins Axis Oct 1939.

I agree the changes implemented have not worked as intended and Bill is going to make some changes.

As it stands the Allies could have the game won (Germany not in a position to attack Russia) by 41. You can read my thoughts on it in the thread.
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Christolos
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RE: Provoking the Italians into war

Post by Christolos »

ORIGINAL: taffjones

Hi Havoc1371

This has been discussed, not sure how to post a link but it is on page 2 of the forum threads titled Italy joins Axis Oct 1939.

I agree the changes implemented have not worked as intended and Bill is going to make some changes.

As it stands the Allies could have the game won (Germany not in a position to attack Russia) by 41. You can read my thoughts on it in the thread.
Here's the link: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4915736

There are some interesting suggestions, but they would need to be tempered so as to not prevent Italy from entering the war too late either.

C
“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”

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havoc1371
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RE: Provoking the Italians into war

Post by havoc1371 »

It need not delay the Italians from entering the war after Germany attacks France. That won't change. I'm advocating a correction to the diplomacy penalties for the Allies harassing Italy to drive it into declaring war before the end of 1939, giving the Allies the initiative at the very start of the war by making Italy vulnerable and sucking away Axis assets without any repercussions for being the aggressors against a neutral country. They need to be severe enough that it isn't worth doing without actually declaring war on Italy and incurring those diplomatic penalties.
Marcinos1985
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RE: Provoking the Italians into war

Post by Marcinos1985 »

I believe there should be a decision event, as in India's case. If Axis players feels his position is vulnerable, he shouldn't be forced into fighting. If Allies want to attack nevertheless, them make them DOW, with all associated penatlies. Judging such decisions is what makes this game great.
At some point, for sake of game balance, they should enter nevertheless. Maybe as IRL, after Fall of France?
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warspite1
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RE: Provoking the Italians into war

Post by warspite1 »

My 2 cents.

Because of Italy's economic and military position and, perhaps more importantly, because of who Mussolini was, Italy should enter the war ONLY when the French are effectively beaten.

Equally the Allies are not going to try and goad Italy into war - they wanted to do the exact opposite.

That said, this is a strategic game and - within reason - we need to allow players options. The problem as we all know is that that can bring in gamey situations.

The penalties should reflect reality and make the choices for either side, real choices to be made e.g.

Italy comes in early - Economic penalties for Germany
Italy comes in late - After a certain time/event, Italy should not be allowed to enter the war. We know why Mussolini declared war on Britain and France in real life. As soon as the Germans have suffered [X] by way of reverses, then Italy would not be allowed to join the war. This could happen at any time so there is a risk for Italy. Note: that would not stop Italy entering the war as per historical date regardless of German performance, but once they've gone past that date, then factors outside their control could take the decision away from them.

Allies declare war OR goad the Italians into declaring war with certain gamey manoeuvres - Big diplomatic hits with the US or perhaps the Italians get additional units or a free tech or something to give the Allies a proper decision to make rather than be allowed freebie, gamey moves. May be it could be any of these happens and the players don't know in any given game which one the program will choose?

As has been mentioned by others, some decisions in this game are no decisions at all. The really fun ones are those that really make a player think what they want to do because there are serious positives and negatives for whichever option is taken. Easy to say of course, but difficult to put into place I guess.
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BillRunacre
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RE: Provoking the Italians into war

Post by BillRunacre »

ORIGINAL: havoc1371
So now I am suggesting that the diplomatic penalties for declaring war on Italy before they go to war be implemented in increments, for each turn the Allied player violates Italian waters. Example: If the British/French navies place ships next to Italian ports and/or have AV/AVL's within landing range of Italian mainland, then in addition to raising Italy's diplomatic status, the other countries that would have been effected by a DOW against Italy should have some of that diplomatic effect for each turn the Allies trigger the Italian penalties.

I totally agree, and have got two ideas to better balance this.

The first I'm confident of, and that is to have the US react against the Allies' aggressive moves in the Med. If they have gone to war to defend Poland, why are they preparing to attack Italy?

The second I'm still thinking about, and this is that a threatened Allied invasion in 1939 might have actually boosted his position in Italy, and therefore Italian National Morale could be increased by Allied invasion preparations. After all, he hasn't declared war on them, so while not all Italian people love Mussolini, they won't be wanting to be invaded either.
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BaggieMania
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RE: Provoking the Italians into war

Post by BaggieMania »

I like both, that way there would be a price to pay, like if you mobilize to heavily close to the border of Russia as the Axis.
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