4.2.1.1 Isolated Reorg Optional So Slow

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rkr1958
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4.2.1.1 Isolated Reorg Optional So Slow

Post by rkr1958 »

Playing with the isolated reorganization limits optional on is so much slower than playing with it off that I'd recommend not using it. In fact, it's such much slower that I personally consider it a "bug" and that's why I posting this.

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Ronnie
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rkr1958
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RE: 4.2.1.1 Isolated Reorg Optional So Slow

Post by rkr1958 »

In the next post I'm going to provide a zip with two game files. The only difference between the two is that one has the isolated reorganization limits optional on and the other off.

If you're game try the following three moves and in the order specified with both games files. Unless I've gone batty I think you'll see a significant speed difference between the two. In fact, I think you'll see a significant speed difference in how fast the two files load.

(1) Yamamoto HQ-I to China 77,145.
(2) Osaka MIL to China 75,143.
(3) 2nd mot corps to China 75,142.

Before and after shown in the below screen cap.

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Ronnie
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rkr1958
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RE: 4.2.1.1 Isolated Reorg Optional So Slow

Post by rkr1958 »

game files.
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Ronnie
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Centuur
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RE: 4.2.1.1 Isolated Reorg Optional So Slow

Post by Centuur »

I agree. It makes the game very, very slow indeed...
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RE: 4.2.1.1 Isolated Reorg Optional So Slow

Post by Angeldust2 »

I wonder, would it be an easy workaround to put this optional on only at the end of an impulse, say at HQ reorganisation phase, and only at impulses when there will be an EoT die roll? If turn continues, put off the optional again till the end of the impulse.

Would this not solve the issue with the long calculating times of supply during movement, while still keep the effects of isolated reorg fully valid for the game? Or am I missing something?

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michaelbaldur
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RE: 4.2.1.1 Isolated Reorg Optional So Slow

Post by michaelbaldur »


there have been many issues with supply calculation times in the game.

steve have done a good job of getting it down.

I can remember when the calculation time was in minutes,

and finishing a single land movement phase took hours.

but I agree that its not good enough.
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rkr1958
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RE: 4.2.1.1 Isolated Reorg Optional So Slow

Post by rkr1958 »

ORIGINAL: Angeldust2

I wonder, would it be an easy workaround to put this optional on only at the end of an impulse, say at HQ reorganisation phase, and only at impulses when there will be an EoT die roll? If turn continues, put off the optional again till the end of the impulse.

Would this not solve the issue with the long calculating times of supply during movement, while still keep the effects of isolated reorg fully valid for the game? Or am I missing something?

My recommendation from a couple of years back was to give the players a "switch" where they could turn supply calculation on/off. I got into situations several times in end game when single moves were each taking minutes. That's the definition of maddening. Specifically check out https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... e=129&key=# post 3856: P.S. One of my objectives for my game file editor is to be able to move units and change hex control via the editor for late game situations such as I encountered in the reference game above. This will literally shave hours off of impulses in the endgame and significant, and I do mean significantly, reduce my frustration level.
ORIGINAL: rkr1958

My reason for stopping is captured in https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4682172

The last allied impulse took me 2 hours and 45 minutes to play and I'd guess that a good 1 hour and 30 minutes of that time was waiting on MWiF. It got to the point that I dreaded picking up an HQ or any other unit that provoked MWiF to recalculate supply. It was taking somewhere between 3 to 5 minutes to pick and move these units. Even selecting an HQ for HQ support, in which case the HQ was already committed to the land combat, provoked a supply recalculation taking 2 to 3 minutes.

In my opinion playability has to be the first priority even over strictly enforcing the rules which would be a close second but still subservient to playability. Because if you can't play the game doesn't matter how well the rules are enforced.
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rustysi
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RE: 4.2.1.1 Isolated Reorg Optional So Slow

Post by rustysi »

In my opinion playability has to be the first priority even over strictly enforcing the rules

Fair enough, but if supply isn't handled properly doesn't it alter the game?

Wouldn't it be better to get it right? I've played many a computer game that had supply considerations, and they got it right.
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Centuur
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RE: 4.2.1.1 Isolated Reorg Optional So Slow

Post by Centuur »

ORIGINAL: rustysi
In my opinion playability has to be the first priority even over strictly enforcing the rules

Fair enough, but if supply isn't handled properly doesn't it alter the game?

Wouldn't it be better to get it right? I've played many a computer game that had supply considerations, and they got it right.

That's exactly what is the problem here. Without a good supply calculation, the game gets altered. Supply has been one of the most difficult area's in the game. The rules of the board game sounds so very easy, but to code those rules seems to be very, very difficult.
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rkr1958
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RE: 4.2.1.1 Isolated Reorg Optional So Slow

Post by rkr1958 »

ORIGINAL: rustysi
In my opinion playability has to be the first priority even over strictly enforcing the rules

Fair enough, but if supply isn't handled properly doesn't it alter the game?

Wouldn't it be better to get it right? I've played many a computer game that had supply considerations, and they got it right.
Well if you can't play the game does it matter if it's 100% right. All I'm saying is that I'll that 90%+ right with a game I can play versus one that's 100% right and so maddening that I quit out of frustration.
Ronnie
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RE: 4.2.1.1 Isolated Reorg Optional So Slow

Post by Angeldust2 »

ORIGINAL: rkr1958
ORIGINAL: Angeldust2

I wonder, would it be an easy workaround to put this optional on only at the end of an impulse, say at HQ reorganisation phase, and only at impulses when there will be an EoT die roll? If turn continues, put off the optional again till the end of the impulse.

Would this not solve the issue with the long calculating times of supply during movement, while still keep the effects of isolated reorg fully valid for the game? Or am I missing something?

My recommendation from a couple of years back was to give the players a "switch" where they could turn supply calculation on/off. I got into situations several times in end game when single moves were each taking minutes. That's the definition of maddening. Specifically check out https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... e=129&key=# post 3856: P.S. One of my objectives for my game file editor is to be able to move units and change hex control via the editor for late game situations such as I encountered in the reference game above. This will literally shave hours off of impulses in the endgame and significant, and I do mean significantly, reduce my frustration level.

Can this optional rule not be used as a "switch"?
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rkr1958
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RE: 4.2.1.1 Isolated Reorg Optional So Slow

Post by rkr1958 »

ORIGINAL: Angeldust2
ORIGINAL: rkr1958
ORIGINAL: Angeldust2

I wonder, would it be an easy workaround to put this optional on only at the end of an impulse, say at HQ reorganisation phase, and only at impulses when there will be an EoT die roll? If turn continues, put off the optional again till the end of the impulse.

Would this not solve the issue with the long calculating times of supply during movement, while still keep the effects of isolated reorg fully valid for the game? Or am I missing something?

My recommendation from a couple of years back was to give the players a "switch" where they could turn supply calculation on/off. I got into situations several times in end game when single moves were each taking minutes. That's the definition of maddening. Specifically check out https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... e=129&key=# post 3856: P.S. One of my objectives for my game file editor is to be able to move units and change hex control via the editor for late game situations such as I encountered in the reference game above. This will literally shave hours off of impulses in the endgame and significant, and I do mean significantly, reduce my frustration level.

Can this optional rule not be used as a "switch"?
It can be if you know how to edit the game file to "switch" this optional rule on and off.

But you do bring up a valid point. Why does having this optional rule enabled affect supply calculations except during the reorg phase?
Ronnie
Angeldust2
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RE: 4.2.1.1 Isolated Reorg Optional So Slow

Post by Angeldust2 »

Ah, I think, I misunderstood before. I was thinking, there are options, which can be enabled/disabled during an ongoing game by simply clicking/unclicking them. Now I realise, the optional rules screen does not allow to click/unclick optional rules during the game at all. You have/had always to edit the game file in order to enable/disable certain optional rules during the game.

So yes, an easily usable "switch" from the main game menue for this optional would be nice. Or to check for isolation only at reorg phase, as you suggest.
ssiviour
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RE: 4.2.1.1 Isolated Reorg Optional So Slow

Post by ssiviour »

You can turn off/on some options mid game by right clicking them on the Options Form, but not all.
Angeldust2
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RE: 4.2.1.1 Isolated Reorg Optional So Slow

Post by Angeldust2 »

You are right, optional rule Isolated Reorganization Limits seems to be able to be switched on/off during game by right clicking! Does anybody have any experience in doing so and can report, if it works as expected or not? Can this switch be used to activate this rule only at the end of an impulse and only if there is a possibility for the turn to end? Will this maybe solve the issue with too long calculation times for the program? And if it works like this, should the reduction of the shortened supply lengths for this check be reconsidered?
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