Equipment Transitions

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ericdauriac
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Equipment Transitions

Post by ericdauriac »

Hello,

Can you tell me more than what is in the manual?

I don't understand the principle of how Equipment Transitions work.

For example, do the transitions overlap in such a way that a unit programmed to go from 72 PzII to 72 PzIII can end up with 72 PzII AND 72 PzIII?

Regards
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Lobster
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: ericdauriac

Hello,

Can you tell me more than what is in the manual?

I don't understand the principle of how Equipment Transitions work.

For example, do the transitions overlap in such a way that a unit programmed to go from 72 PzII to 72 PzIII can end up with 72 PzII AND 72 PzIII?

Regards

Yes, someone could game the system and have 72 of each type. One way to mitigate that is to have a dummy unit with a high replacement rate that soaks up the equipment being transitioned out of units. But that's not a very good solution really.

Another way is to completely replace the unit. Again, not a really good solution because the unit in question is removed from the front lines. Although that could potentially mimic a unit being removed from combat to train on the new equipment.
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nepos2
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by nepos2 »

Hello Eric!

Equipment transitions are managed in the replacement editor where you can decide the replacement rate and start and end date of the availability of any equipment. The original phased out equipment slot remain in the unit however, as long as it avoids losses it could have the double amount of equipment as in your example.

Regards, Henrik

ericdauriac
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by ericdauriac »

"Be aware that unit reconstitution is only triggered by having enough replacement equipment for the top item [known as the 'first line equipment'] in the unit’s TO&E"

does this mean that materials are only renewed if the first line material is complete?

Regards
cathar1244
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by cathar1244 »

ORIGINAL: ericdauriac

"Be aware that unit reconstitution is only triggered by having enough replacement equipment for the top item [known as the 'first line equipment'] in the unit’s TO&E"

does this mean that materials are only renewed if the first line material is complete?

Regards

I think it applies in cases in which a unit has been destroyed.

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Zovs
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by Zovs »

Another way, say your scenario is battalioned based (just bear with the crazy talk for sec...) and each hex is 5km and each turn is a day and there are 1,700 turns and it starts on Oct. 7th 1940 and ends on June 3rd 1945 (only because I forgot to set the start date to 1 Sept. 1939 for this demonstration).

Now Here is one of your (of many) Panzer Battalions:

Image

Then in the replacement editor you Could edit the replacements to filter in as following (and note that by attrition and combat, the older types will slowly over time cease to be produced and exit, while the new ones will fill out the unit.

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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by Zovs »

Doing World War Two day by day wont work, since the game only lets you have 2000 turns make. I think you'll need another 74 or 75 turns to do WW2 day by day or 2075 turns total.

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Lobster
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by Lobster »

This is what I meant by someone gaming the system. It would be entirely possible to have a super duper panzer battalion with as much armor as a division. Personally I would withdraw the unit and put out a new one with the new equipment to avoid the super duper battalions. Maybe some day the player will be able to transition equipment manually yet allow the scenario designer to keep a cap on total armor or whatever equipment was being transitioned.
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Zovs
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by Zovs »

Jack,

How is that unit a 'super duper' panzer battalion? Over time the Pz I B's will no longer be available and neither will the Pz II's and so forth.

TOAW has really only two or three ways to model equipment transfers. It has no capability to do in place transistions.
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76mm
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by 76mm »

ORIGINAL: Zovs
Jack,

How is that unit a 'super duper' panzer battalion? Over time the Pz I B's will no longer be available and neither will the Pz II's and so forth.
Can't answer for Jack, but my problem with that approach (and I think what he's talking about) is that let's say you decided to hold that battalion in reserve, so it doesn't lose its Pzkw Is...but it still starts filling up with 30 Pzkw IIs as well, so now it has both. You keep it in reserve, so pretty soon, it has 30 Pzkw Is, 30 Pzkw IIs, 30 Pzkw IIIs, and so on.

While this is kind of an extreme example, it is hard to imagine that you won't have situations where the battalion would often be significantly overstrength on a regular basis.
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golden delicious
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Jack,

How is that unit a 'super duper' panzer battalion? Over time the Pz I B's will no longer be available and neither will the Pz II's and so forth.

Sure- but the unit will still have their full "assigned" complement of every type unless they lose them through combat or movement attrition. Presto: your tank battalion winds up with a full strength five times over.

Now in practice folks don't hold their panzers back and it works nicely enough, but where the model really falls down is with reconstitution. Like Hitler, the game would prefer to give you a new unit with a whacking great TO&E than refill your poor battered frontsoldaten. If there's stuff in the stockpile for multiple types, your new unit will wind up full up with everything it can get its hands on.

Like Lobster, I prefer to keep in-unit transitions to a minimum, and have a new version of the unit show up instead. Be sure to use a "disband" not a "withdraw" event, though, as the other goodies like squads and towed guns shouldn't go in the bin, as this would encourage the player to "suicide" the unit on its last turn.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

Like Lobster, I prefer to keep in-unit transitions to a minimum, and have a new version of the unit show up instead. Be sure to use a "disband" not a "withdraw" event, though, as the other goodies like squads and towed guns shouldn't go in the bin, as this would encourage the player to "suicide" the unit on its last turn.

But where do you have it show up? Disband it in El Alamein and have its replacement show up in El Agheila? That doesn't work very well.
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Zovs
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by Zovs »

Good points all. I sit slightly corrected. It does seem to work well for minor tweaks like a unit that went into battle without its panther battalion (0/36) and then they get added back to the unit over time.

One of the great features of GG WitW/WitE is that you can do equipment upgrades and transitions in place, preferably when you pull the unit out of line and stick it in the rear with a HQ unit.

But alas we have never had that with TOAW.

PS That would be some scenario eh? World War II Day by Day, 2075 turns...lol

Makes my head hurt just thinking about it.
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

But where do you have it show up? Disband it in El Alamein and have its replacement show up in El Agheila? That doesn't work very well.

As it currently stands nothing is fool proof. Everyone will do what suits them whether they are players or scenario designers.
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: Zovs


PS That would be some scenario eh? World War II Day by Day, 2075 turns...lol

Makes my head hurt just thinking about it.

That would be insane. [:D]
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golden delicious
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


But where do you have it show up? Disband it in El Alamein and have its replacement show up in El Agheila? That doesn't work very well.

One would want to design the events properly. A TO "Withdraw 1. Panzer?". Perhaps a two turn delay- then the unit is disbanded. Perhaps six weeks later you get the unit back at base bright-eyed and bushy tailed with the new TO&E: whatever delay you feel is appropriate for everyone to return to base and get used to their new gear.

Obviously there's an abstraction here still- and there's scope for this to go wrong if 1. Panzer then charges off and is surrounded by enemy units when it's disbanded. However the player isn't going to want to risk the unit being eliminated and all the equipment going to "lost" instead of "on hand". To further reduce this risk you might want to include a Range on the event so the player doesn't know exactly when the unit will go.

I'd say it's still preferable to large scale in-unit equipment transitions as they stand. Of course I'm sure (without looking) that this is on the roadmap for development and both fudges will be replaced by a proper feature in due course.
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: Zovs


PS That would be some scenario eh? World War II Day by Day, 2075 turns...lol

Makes my head hurt just thinking about it.

That would be insane. [:D]

You'd need a bigger map- can't fit in all Europe at 5km/hex on a 700x700 map.... Plus more slots in the OOB so you can build it out at battalion level.
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by Zovs »

I can't image the size of map would would need to map out Europe, England, North Africa, South Africa, all of Russia at least to the Urals and Norway at 5 km a hex ... it really hurts to think about it. . . lol
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golden delicious
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Zovs

I can't image the size of map would would need to map out Europe, England, North Africa, South Africa, all of Russia at least to the Urals and Norway at 5 km a hex ... it really hurts to think about it. . . lol

Yes one could make the scenario but to test it you'd need the resources of a small country. Maybe if we can Jeff Bezos to fund the project...?
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RE: Equipment Transitions

Post by Zovs »

Nah, the engine would would cause the Cern computers to explode and we would all die a horrible digital death from computers zapping out our eye sockets and sending in deep mind tearing RGB pixels to make mince meat of our fragile brains...and in the distance, over a loud speaker, you would hear Norm begin to laugh...
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