I have just taken Verdun in 1915 . . .

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stockwellpete
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I have just taken Verdun in 1915 . . .

Post by stockwellpete »

Playing against AI on default Veteran settings. My German artillery unit had 10 shells and was upgraded one level. I fired all 10 shells and reduced the full strength French Corps there from 10 to 5 and then took the fortress with my second "prepared" attack attack for the loss of just 1 strength point (from my first "prepared" attack). I was also able to knock out the adjacent French Corps (it was also full strength) and then occupy its hex and entrench my unit as well.

This seems to be too easy to me given what really happened at Verdun. I don't think the defending French Corps should be losing 5 strength points in this way. Points were lost as early as the 1st and 3rd artillery salvoes. Perhaps strength points should not be lost at all until the entrenchment level is degraded by at least 50% for fortresses and fortified towns?
stockwellpete
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RE: I have just taken Verdun in 1915 . . .

Post by stockwellpete »

The next turn I took the fortress of Novo-Georgievsk, near Warsaw, in 1 turn having fired 5 artillery shells and having used 2 "prepared" attacks and a third moving attack. I lost 4 strength points in this attack. This seemed a bit more realistic to me as I had concentrated forces for the attack (2 detachments did not need to attack in the end) and the artillery fire did not cause any loss of strength points, just a reduction in entrenchment from 6 to 1.

So then I looked up what actually happened at this fortress in WW1 and it held out for just 2 weeks before being overwhelmed, so that fits more or less exactly what happened in my turn. so even though the artillery fire did not reduce the strength of the defenders, the de-entrenchment and morale/readiness drops were sufficient for me to take the fortress.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Novogeorgievsk
Chernobyl
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RE: I have just taken Verdun in 1915 . . .

Post by Chernobyl »

Yeah I think people are under the mistaken impression that artillery is/was overpowered because of the damage it does. The main power it has is 100% chance de-entrench one level per shot. Even the strongest unit is easily destroyed when entrenchment is removed.
Tendraline
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RE: I have just taken Verdun in 1915 . . .

Post by Tendraline »

I managed to take Verdun in the middle of December 1914, and that was on Veteran AI. Not even using Artillery Weapons I. It is actually quite simple:

1. Reinforce your artillery to 10 health.
2. Cut Verdun off from all sides, which should be not too bad with a hard west strategy like mine. Supply will drop from 12 to 5, drastically reducing performance.
3. Use all of your shells on it for demoralization purposes.
4. For detrenchment, wait for winter to reduce casualties.

5. Attack it with full force. The attacks should be 2:1 or 1:1 initially if you did not do step 4, but this is not bad since you most likely outnumber the enemy and they probably won't counterattack. Drops in readiness due to casualties will reduce their effectiveness, too.


That said, demoralization is also quite a component to artillery effectiveness. The above is enough to reduce morale by 40 percent, and when fully upgraded it will reduce it down by 80. Nothing can really beat artillery in this regard, as they don't have as many strikes, even on a per-turn basis.
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Tanaka
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RE: I have just taken Verdun in 1915 . . .

Post by Tanaka »

ORIGINAL: Tendraline

I managed to take Verdun in the middle of December 1914, and that was on Veteran AI. Not even using Artillery Weapons I. It is actually quite simple:

1. Reinforce your artillery to 10 health.
2. Cut Verdun off from all sides, which should be not too bad with a hard west strategy like mine. Supply will drop from 12 to 5, drastically reducing performance.
3. Use all of your shells on it for demoralization purposes.
4. For detrenchment, wait for winter to reduce casualties.

5. Attack it with full force. The attacks should be 2:1 or 1:1 initially if you did not do step 4, but this is not bad since you most likely outnumber the enemy and they probably won't counterattack. Drops in readiness due to casualties will reduce their effectiveness, too.


That said, demoralization is also quite a component to artillery effectiveness. The above is enough to reduce morale by 40 percent, and when fully upgraded it will reduce it down by 80. Nothing can really beat artillery in this regard, as they don't have as many strikes, even on a per-turn basis.

Against the AI for sure. Against the human player it is very difficult to cut off!
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Chernobyl
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RE: I have just taken Verdun in 1915 . . .

Post by Chernobyl »

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Against the AI for sure. Against the human player it is very difficult to cut off!

Yeah I agree. Any human that lets me get 5 hexes next to Verdun in 1914/15 probably has already lost half their army in reckless attacks.
Chernobyl
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RE: I have just taken Verdun in 1915 . . .

Post by Chernobyl »

ORIGINAL: Tendraline
That said, demoralization is also quite a component to artillery effectiveness. The above is enough to reduce morale by 40 percent, and when fully upgraded it will reduce it down by 80. Nothing can really beat artillery in this regard, as they don't have as many strikes, even on a per-turn basis.

Yeah that's true it is a big deal, especially for those big attacks on forts where you expend all your shells.
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OldCrowBalthazor
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RE: I have just taken Verdun in 1915 . . .

Post by OldCrowBalthazor »

Truly.....

And just what your trying to pull on against my French these last few turns, right Tanaka? I know what your working up on, creeping in, skulking, bending around the west, probing down through the Woerve on the east. Thats why there's a cemetery of dead Germans around valiant Verdun.

[:-] [;)]
stockwellpete
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RE: I have just taken Verdun in 1915 . . .

Post by stockwellpete »

Over the next few days I will look at some of the other sieges in WW1 to see how long they actually lasted. The first one is Liege and its forts, which lasted less than a fortnight (one turn of the game) . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Li%C3%A8ge
stockwellpete
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RE: I have just taken Verdun in 1915 . . .

Post by stockwellpete »

And the longest siege was Przemysl, a fortified town, which survived an intermittent siege for 6 months . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Przemy%C5%9Bl
stockwellpete
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RE: I have just taken Verdun in 1915 . . .

Post by stockwellpete »

Last one for today is the Ottoman attack on the British at Kut, which lasted for nearly 5 months . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Kut
stockwellpete
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RE: I have just taken Verdun in 1915 . . .

Post by stockwellpete »

Two ideas that have come to me while running (like a gazelle) round my local park this morning . . .

1) Looking at the map at the start of the game the entrenchment levels for Major Forts - Forts - Fortified Towns - other hexes is 6-4-3-0. What if these were increased a bit? Maybe to 8-6-4-0 or even 10-7-5-0? The entrenchment maximum seems to increase by +1 each time you complete a Trench Warfare research so this would give overall maximums at Trench Warfare Tech 5 of 13-11-9-5 or even 15-12-10-5 instead of 11-9-8-5.

That's one idea anyway. I am not sure it is any good really because I think the main issue is the amount of damage that a single artillery salvo can do - it will definitely De-entrench 1 level, it may kill a defending unit's Strength Point, and it will definitely reduce Readiness and Morale.

So idea 2 is a bit more to the point, I feel, and can either be used in conjunction with idea 1, or be used on its own . . .

2) No strength points of a defending unit can be lost at all from artillery fire if the entrenchment level is 6 or over. So the first point to make is that this idea would not affect the vast majority of hexes in the game as entrenchment level 5 is the maximum they can reach with full Trench Warfare Tech research. But it would effect those few key hexes where entrenchment was between 6 and 11 (in the current game) or at higher entrenchment levels (if any part of idea 1 was in use). That is to say, Major Forts, Forts and Fortified Towns. To simulate the initial breaking up of fortified positions, which would require an initial concerted bombardment, you could also say that artillery salvoes only have a 50% chance of de-entrenching a unit at entrenchment levels of 6 or over.

I think something along these lines might be interesting. I have no idea how to Mod or I would make a "Fortress" Mod myself, but maybe somebody reading this might find it a challenge. The values I have suggested are not necessarily the optimum ones and players with more knowledge of the period than me may be able to improve on them. The other idea I had was to break down the 6 to 11 entrenchment level category into 2 parts (maybe 6-8 and 9-11) and have a differential whereby there was only a 25% chance of de-entrenching at the 9-11 level, but that might be unnecessarily fussy.

Any thoughts?
stockwellpete
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RE: I have just taken Verdun in 1915 . . .

Post by stockwellpete »

I was just looking in the Editor and there is a section called Terrain Resource Defence Bonuses, which can be simply modded by altering numerical values. The default bonuses for defending against artillery are as follows . . .

Major Fortress - 5
Fortress - 3
Fortification - 2
Fortified Town - 1

But Major Capital, Major City and City are also set at 1, so I think I might initially add +1 to the 4 terrain types listed to see what difference it makes.
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