Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

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malkarma
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Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by malkarma »

I want to ask this question to Alvaro.

In order to break the blockade of Gibraltar or Malta, what need the allied player do?:
a) Have a ship in a ocean hex adjacent to Gibraltar/Malta.
b) Or have a fleet in port will be enough to brak the blockade?
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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by AlvaroSousa »

#2 in the official
#3 or #2 in the beta if I remember correctly
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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by malkarma »

So, in the new beta builds, have a fleet parked at Gibraltar/Malta willbe enough to avoid the blockade?
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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by AlvaroSousa »

Yes But I am sure you dont want them there when the pounding starts
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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by malkarma »

Until you have 6 AA guns there, then your fleet is virtually inmortal.

But thanks for the clarification.
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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by MagicMissile »

Was just gonna post it as a bug but all is fine then.
My British corps does not lose any effectiveness at all under the situation in the screen shot. This is latest beta patch.

/MM

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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by AlvaroSousa »

Axis need more air power. Taking Gibraltar by sea should not be easy.

The full weight of the German airforce should pound on the location.
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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by malkarma »

Alvaro, those 6 AA guns manage to land 3-4 hits per strike. And not all strikes will hit the UK ships. So say that what you only need is more planes is not only delusional, but can mislead new players to an overinvestment there that in the long term will kill their games due the huge amount of air loses.
So if the fleet can break the blockade by just staying at port, then I ask for a nerf to amount of AA guns that can be deployed in Girbraltar and Malta (4 can be a nice number).
Why I ask this? Because if tthose locations are so small than can be blockaded by the opponent fleet, then they are not big enoguh to have the room for the same amount of guns than other hexes.
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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by ComadrejaKorp »

Strongly agree, Gibraltar is impossible to take if it is well defended, there are not enough supplies for Lutwafe and it does not receive reinforcements for casualties.
I do not know if historically it should be possible or not, maybe it is correct that if Uk reinforces it, it is impossible to invade.
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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by AlvaroSousa »

With 2 turns of pounding a location by air with 6 AA and no interceptors I lost ~1.5 air units worth of production and no manpower.

If the UK wants to leave a fleet in Gibraltar to get pounded from 6 air units I will gladly trade 3x the amount of air to sink 1/2 their fleet.

The rock isn't something you can take with a couple aircraft and 1 invasion force when the RN is present and no Axis fleets

It should be incredibly difficult using an enormous amount of resources.

So if he parks a fleet there POUND IT with 6 air units and laugh as naval groups get blown away. UK has no Fleet in 1943 then the Allies will be hard pressed to invade.
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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by malkarma »

My issue is not the air losses. My issue is that you not going to get hits half of the time. If I get at least 1 hit per attack with the naval planes...then I will gladly take the losses.
But , this is just my impression, not something write on stone.

ps: Actually I have the axis fleet there....on both sides.
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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by battlevonwar »

I had about 7 or 8 vs what MM brought in my game as Axis(a patch ago)

6 AA and viola I lost 3-4 step per and never took Gibraltar. I don't think it's impossible but it would require massive luck and a massive investment. Which I suppose is far, it's a formidable location but if the UK doesn't want you to have it and has sufficient units there you probably won't get it as far as I remember. I lost 50-60 air step, 10-15 Naval Step, 1 Corp and I think finally just said heck with this. You would have an easier time invading Spain in Winter and getting there the slow way than via North Africa.
ORIGINAL: malkarma

My issue is not the air losses. My issue is that you not going to get hits half of the time. If I get at least 1 hit per attack with the naval planes...then I will gladly take the losses.
But , this is just my impression, not something write on stone.

ps: Actually I have the axis fleet there....on both sides.
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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by MagicMissile »

I think it is fair actually. If you go through Spain so fine take Gibraltar. But trying to take it with just an invasion I feel should have a very small chance of success if the UK defends it properly. If too easy it will happen in every game. It is arguably the most important hex in the game.

/MM
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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by malkarma »

I¡m not discusing the difficulty of invade Gibraltar. What I'm discusing is the idea that a continue air punding against 6 AA factors will succed in sinking the UK fleet. Look at our game, tell me how many times I have scored a hit on the Gibraltar fleet after receiving 4-6 air strikes per turn.
If you tell me that at least 1 of every 2 attacks will score a hit, I'm ok with losing 3-4 strength points per attack. But the real ratio is 1 succesful attack every 3-4 tries, and that makes worthless trying it from a production point of view unless the flow of the game have put the UK navy against the ropes.
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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by MagicMissile »

No the 6 aa on Gibraltar have exceeded expectations for sure. The losses I see under combat reports seems to be very high and yes there have not been many hits on the ships if I recall correctly. I dont know the mechanics. If there is too much damage from AA what happens? Is there an abort the mission or do they actually make an attack with I guess some penalty or effectiveness loss? Possibly the AA is a bit too effective. But hits on ships will never be repaired or crazy costly if you do vs airlosses that are fairly easily replaced so there is still the risk that it will be too easy to drive away the fleet and then take Gibraltar it is a tricky balance issue. And I dont know if everyone actually puts 6 AA there. Maybe people reading the forums do but maybe not other people I dont know. I really like to keep 6 AA as the UK and have for quite some time. Since you start with 4 you only need to build 2 and then you have the flexibility to move them to the hotspot where they might be needed. Either Gibraltar, Malta or Alexandria.

I guess one solution could be that you cant move AA or at least put some cost or a longer delay than one turn to it but again maybe a lot of coding for a fairly small thing.

I will make a suggestion I wrote in the last AAR about considering toning down the cost of repairing ships and maybe build new ones. As is once a fleet is damaged it is a spent force it wont see any more action in the game since it is very expensive to repair and I have never seen a newly built CA,BB or CV. Maybe it would make the game more fun and give some more build options if repairing and building ships costs could come down a bit. Good or bad I dont know [:)].

/MM

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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by ComadrejaKorp »

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile


I guess one solution could be that you cant move AA or at least put some cost or a longer delay than one turn to it but again maybe a lot of coding for a fairly small thing.



/MM


Sure, but it sounds good
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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by AlvaroSousa »

You have 2 invasion zones to attack from now.
You have no manpower losses on aircraft.
You can change the research on the planes.

There is no reason you can't enjoy blowing up Allied naval groups and take the Rock. But you have to plan for it.
So I tested 4 air units vs 6 naval groups (just at sea)
In just 1 round of strikes with 4 air units on a 6 sized fleet I inflicted 13 naval losses for 13 aircraft (25pp per strength vs 5pp per strength repair cost adjusted)
Even if I triple the amount of damage my air units took (which would reflect 6 AA in Gib) in PP it is a bargain to take the losses.

It was 2 of 4 that were ground attack air units with 1939 technology. 1940 naval air increases it by 50% so the damage would be more and I guarantee I would have 6 ground attack units

Yes it might take 2-3 months if the UK is stubborn and a large cost. But they would most certainly lose more and lose precious naval groups that they can't easily replace. Thus why I always build some naval groups as the Allies.

So if they park a large fleet there don't invade. Show them the error of there ways. Just pound the fleet till they move or it's gone. Then invade.

I just love sinking naval groups. Best part of the game.
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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by malkarma »

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

You have 2 invasion zones to attack from now.
You have no manpower losses on aircraft.
You can change the research on the planes.

Axis can't use the Atlantic Sea landing zone. You can check it.
So I tested 4 air units vs 6 naval groups (just at sea)
In just 1 round of strikes with 4 air units on a 6 sized fleet I inflicted 13 naval losses for 13 aircraft (25pp per strength vs 5pp per strength repair cost adjusted)
Even if I triple the amount of damage my air units took (which would reflect 6 AA in Gib) in PP it is a bargain to take the losses.

If you are going to share the results of a test to support your argumentation, do the test under the same circusntancer that we are debating. I don't care how many hits are you doing at units at sea, because what we are discusing here is how many hits are you able to do to the ships at port under the AA umbrella. So please do those same attacks over a fleet parked in Gibraltar protected by 6 AA and tell me how many hits do you land and how much planes do you lost, then we will able to continue the discussion.

Also it seems that you forgot that planes can only recover 5 strength points per turn, so if your planes gets more tha those 5 hits in a turn, they will be weaker the next one.
And the worst part of this, is that the UK actually doesn't need to have the fleet there all the time, because since the blockade of the port can be breaked for just enter the port, he can stay there 1 every 2-3 turns and still maintain Gibraltar more or less supplied without the need of expose his fleet.

But all this discussion could have been avoided if the blockade rule had been designed under some logic. Because saying that the only that you need to break the blockade of a port is just some ships there doing nothing is like say that the best way to break the siege of a castle is just have some guys there making bonfires and singing "cumbaya". A fleet should move outside the port in order to break the blockade, not stay inside iddle.
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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by Harrybanana »

ORIGINAL: malkarma

I¡m not discusing the difficulty of invade Gibraltar. What I'm discusing is the idea that a continue air punding against 6 AA factors will succed in sinking the UK fleet. Look at our game, tell me how many times I have scored a hit on the Gibraltar fleet after receiving 4-6 air strikes per turn.
If you tell me that at least 1 of every 2 attacks will score a hit, I'm ok with losing 3-4 strength points per attack. But the real ratio is 1 succesful attack every 3-4 tries, and that makes worthless trying it from a production point of view unless the flow of the game have put the UK navy against the ropes.

Malkarma, Are you using German bombers or Italian ones? What is the effectiveness % of your air units? I believe (and Alvaro can correct me if I am wrong) that an air units defense against AA is affected by both its effectiveness % and its experience %. So an air unit with a base 3 AA defense with 90% effectiveness and 60% Experience will have an actual AA defence of 1.6. While the same unit with a 60% effectiveness and 40% experience will have a base AA defence of 0.7; so less than half as good. Of course its naval air attack will also be less than half as good. So an air unit with 50% more effectiveness and 50% more experience will do twice the damage while taking half the casualties.
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RE: Clarification about Gibraltar/Malta blockade

Post by Harrybanana »

ORIGINAL: malkarma

But all this discussion could have been avoided if the blockade rule had been designed under some logic. Because saying that the only that you need to break the blockade of a port is just some ships there doing nothing is like say that the best way to break the siege of a castle is just have some guys there making bonfires and singing "cumbaya". A fleet should move outside the port in order to break the blockade, not stay inside iddle.

This works both ways. The problem with requiring the UK fleet to be adjacent to Gibraltar rather than in port, is that Gibraltar can be blockaded by a small fleet in raider mode. So if the UK moves a bigger fleet (presumably escorting supply ships) adjacent to Gibraltar there will be no naval battle because the Axis fleet is in raider mode. On his next turn the Axis pound the UK fleet by air forcing it to move away. The Axis move back in with a single ship fleet in raider mode.

So does it make sense that the UK fleet can break the blockade by sitting in the port? I would say yes if the Axis fleet is in Raider mode because in that case the Axis fleet has essentially run away, so why should the UK fleet have to remain outside the protection of the port? It certainly makes a lot more sense than the Axis being able to blockade Gibraltar with a one unit fleet in raider mode. IMHO if the Axis is going to blockade either Gibraltar or Malta they should have to do so in fleet mode and the blockading fleet should have to have a minimum size of 10 strength. So I think it is unfair to say that the UK can't move into the port to break a blockade while at the same time saying that the Axis can blockade the port with a weak fleet in raider mode.

Robert Harris
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