stealth aircraft in CMO

Take command of air and naval assets from post-WW2 to the near future in tactical and operational scale, complete with historical and hypothetical scenarios and an integrated scenario editor.

Moderator: MOD_Command

JPFisher55
Posts: 589
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:54 pm

stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by JPFisher55 »

I recently read a book about the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 titled "Road to Baghdad" by Ross Simpson. The author notes that both F-117 and B-2 aircraft bombed downtown Baghdad without any escort or other pre-mission assistance. However, in CMO these aircraft are not able to reach such targets without sead or fighter escort or assistance. IMO, stealth aircraft in CMO are not stealthy enough to represent their real life aircraft stealth abilities. So, I am forced to use them like other non-stealth bombers. IMO, in real life, these stealth aircraft have penetrated modern air defenses on their own using their stealth capabilities, but not in CMO.

I really like the latest update which works real smooth. However, IMO, the F-117 and B-2 should have better stealth capabilities.
User avatar
Gunner98
Posts: 5487
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:49 am
Location: The Great White North!
Contact:

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by Gunner98 »

Have a scenario in for testing at the moment where they have to do just that.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4893558

Granted it is not a full up IADS that they are penetrating but I think that's appropriate. The occasions where they have done that in the past, surprise has been a major factor, which isn't often crafted in scenarios they are used in. Beyond a first surprise strike, they would certainly need SEAD/DEAD/AAW escort or in a situation where superiority had been gained - Iraq after a few days, Bosnia, Afghanistan etc
Check out our novel, Northern Fury: H-Hour!: http://northernfury.us/
And our blog: http://northernfury.us/blog/post2/
Twitter: @NorthernFury94 or Facebook https://www.facebook.com/northernfury/
boogabooga
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:05 am

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by boogabooga »

ORIGINAL: JPFisher55

IMO, in real life, these stealth aircraft have penetrated modern air defenses on their own using their stealth capabilities....

One was also shot down by "modern" air defenses.

Also, I'm sure those strikes were carefully planned to stay away from known threats, etc. and didn't just charge in.
The boogabooga doctrine for CMO: Any intentional human intervention needs to be able to completely and reliably over-ride anything that the AI is doing at any time.
TheOttoman
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:29 pm

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by TheOttoman »

The author notes that both F-117 and B-2 aircraft bombed downtown Baghdad without any escort or other pre-mission assistance. However, in CMO these aircraft are not able to reach such targets without sead or fighter escort or assistance.

In 2003, the F-117's tanked off of KC-135's on the Iraq/Saudi Border. They then dragged the F-117's over the border so that their tanks were topped off. They each dropped 4,000 lbs of GPS ordinance over their target (a suspected location of a HVT), turned south and then tanked using the same tanker they crossed the border with.
Eboreg
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:35 pm

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by Eboreg »

One of the biggest problems that stealth aircraft face is when they fly near a SAM site that has its radars turned on. The problem with this is that a SAM site that has its radars on all the time is a SAM site that will die very quickly in a salvo of Anti-Radiation missiles. The main reason that stealth aircraft aren't as useful in C:MO as in RL is that SAM sites will almost always have their radars turned on since making an AI-controlled SAM site turn on its radars only when there's an aircraft to shoot at is incredibly difficult and most scenario designers just can't be bothered.
User avatar
SeaQueen
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:20 am
Location: Washington D.C.

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by SeaQueen »

Having SAM sites blink their acquisition radars according to some scheme is actually pretty easy to do in LUA. I've done it a few different ways. The engagement radars don't turn on without a target, and they can be cued by optical sensors or other search/acquisition radars so there doesn't need to be a lot of coding for that.
ORIGINAL: Eboreg

One of the biggest problems that stealth aircraft face is when they fly near a SAM site that has its radars turned on. The problem with this is that a SAM site that has its radars on all the time is a SAM site that will die very quickly in a salvo of Anti-Radiation missiles. The main reason that stealth aircraft aren't as useful in C:MO as in RL is that SAM sites will almost always have their radars turned on since making an AI-controlled SAM site turn on its radars only when there's an aircraft to shoot at is incredibly difficult and most scenario designers just can't be bothered.
BDukes
Posts: 1797
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:59 pm

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by BDukes »

Intermittent ok but I build more logic between illuminate and not illuminate decisions, especially against more modern combatants. Flicking the light on and off at fixed intervals isn't random once the pattern is learn.



Don't call it a comeback...
JPFisher55
Posts: 589
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:54 pm

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by JPFisher55 »

When I wrote "assistance," I was referring to sead or fighter support, not tanker, sorry. The one F-117 lost over Serbia was due to mechanical issues according to the official Pentagon report. I'm not sure that SAM radar, or other search radar, can detect stealth aircraft as easily as they do in CMO. F-117's dropped bombs over Baghdad without being detected in the Persian Gulf War. B-2's and F-117's did the same in the 2003 Iraq Freedom War. Maybe the Iraq air defense was poorly operated? I guess the truth is not known. I do know that in CMO my B-2's cannot penetrate Chinese or North Korea without some sead and fighter suport.
DWReese
Posts: 1879
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:40 am
Location: Miami, Florida

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by DWReese »

I don't ever activate my SAM radar units. I let the regular radar units detect the enemy, and then the SAM activates when it's ready to shoot. I have NEVER experienced a situation where it needed to be told to activate periodically as you guys are describing.

Now, I do leave the regular radar units on full time.

DWReese
Posts: 1879
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:40 am
Location: Miami, Florida

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by DWReese »

At what distance are the F-117s being detected, and by which unit. I have some time, and this topic interests me, so I'll be glad to take a look.

Doug
thewood1
Posts: 6832
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:24 pm

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by thewood1 »

My understanding has always been that F-117 aren't undetectable, but have a radar return that is small enough to be filtered out both electronically and by human decision-making. And then, even if you know something is there, it can be difficult to get a fire control lock.

In Serbia, it wasn't mechanical failure. It was a combination of planners getting lazy or complacent and a smart Serbian officer who paid attention. He had his search radar set to its lowest freq. setting and had received human intel a strike was inbound along the same track NATO always used. He knew exactly where to look and the search radar picked up enough of a return to manually track the returns with the FCR. So when the F-117 opened its bay doors, the FCR had enough of a signal to fire. Two missiles fired as the bay doors closed and the 117 banked away. The first missile couldn't track, but the second guided enough to hit.

That is from Osprey's Air Vanguard 16 and Combat Aircraft 24

In those accounts there is discussion about radars and how long they stayed energized. The Serbians felt that 20 sec. was the longest you could leave a radar active without getting a HARM down your throat. But they had human intelligence tracking flights and consistent flight paths. So they could easily time when to turn radars on. There was no intermittent schedule for turning radars on.
You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes
thewood1
Posts: 6832
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:24 pm

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by thewood1 »

btw, the Air Vanguard book also says F-117s were escorted by EA-6s on the first night of Iraqi freedom.
You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes
User avatar
goldfinger35
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:59 pm

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by goldfinger35 »

ORIGINAL: DWReese

At what distance are the F-117s being detected, and by which unit. I have some time, and this topic interests me, so I'll be glad to take a look.

Doug

From my testing, detection range by ground radars:
F-117: 50-80 nm
F-22/F-35 internal: 35-80 nm
F-22/F-35 internal long range + external tank: 125 nm
F-22/F-35 external ammo: 165 nm

etc.
User avatar
goldfinger35
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:59 pm

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by goldfinger35 »

ORIGINAL: boogabooga


Also, I'm sure those strikes were carefully planned to stay away from known threats, etc. and didn't just charge in.

I stumbled upon a picture of F-117 cockpit (can't find it now) where pilot was planning for a mission and there was a 10" monitor added inside his cockpit where enemy radar sites/SAMs and plane flight plan were visible (between the sites).
DWReese
Posts: 1879
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:40 am
Location: Miami, Florida

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by DWReese »

You need to tell me WHICH SPECIFIC radar units you have present that are ACTUALLY detecting them.

The units carrying external ordinance essentially eliminate the unit from being "stealthy."

Doug
User avatar
KungPao
Posts: 341
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:00 pm
Location: Winnie the Pooh's dreamland

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by KungPao »

ORIGINAL: JPFisher55
I do know that in CMO my B-2's cannot penetrate Chinese or North Korea without some sead and fighter suport.
Well, what makes you think your stealth A/C can penetrate Chinese or North Korea's airspace without any support?

Stealth technology doesn't make an A/C invisible. It reduce detection range however, just like a camouflage uniform.

Image

Image
Attachments
73c33f70gy..m80mp0xs.jpg
73c33f70gy..m80mp0xs.jpg (245.33 KiB) Viewed 54 times
73c33f70gy..l20m8jwn.jpg
73c33f70gy..l20m8jwn.jpg (254.56 KiB) Viewed 54 times
Sir? Do you want to order a Kung Pao Chicken or a Kung Fu Chicken?
User avatar
KungPao
Posts: 341
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:00 pm
Location: Winnie the Pooh's dreamland

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by KungPao »

When you are using stealth A/C to penetrate a opponent's airspace, watch out those EW radar working at low frequency. Anything works at "A"~"C" Band is a threat. For now I can just remember P-14, YJ-26, but there is a long list of radars working at those bands

I did a testing back in CMANO. Believe or not, P-14/SA-5 SAM site was able to detect a B-2 at 50nm away.
Sir? Do you want to order a Kung Pao Chicken or a Kung Fu Chicken?
User avatar
goldfinger35
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:59 pm

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by goldfinger35 »

ORIGINAL: DWReese

You need to tell me WHICH SPECIFIC radar units you have present that are ACTUALLY detecting them.

The units carrying external ordinance essentially eliminate the unit from being "stealthy."

Doug

Sorry, I didn’t write that down. I just added various radars in mission editor and observed. I think P14 was the first to detect.
thewood1
Posts: 6832
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:24 pm

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by thewood1 »

About once a year we get this question..."Why can enemy radars see my stealth plane?". There is usually a reference to some comment in a book about how F-117s blew through downtown Baghdad without being seen. Once you start digging into the various stories, there is a lot more going on behind the scenes like ECM, SAM gaps, radar coverage mapping, diversions, human intel, clandestine ground missions, etc.
You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes
JPFisher55
Posts: 589
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:54 pm

RE: stealth aircraft in CMO

Post by JPFisher55 »

The Pentagon claims that the B-2 can penetrate an opponent's airspace unaided by escort aircraft (not including tankers). The Pentagon, and the author that I mentioned in by OP, claim that B-2s and F-117's penetrated Iraq airspace to Baghdad without any escort. I don't know if these claims are true.
Post Reply

Return to “Command: Modern Operations series”