[Logged] Strike Mission flight inappropriately loitering in target area

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boogabooga
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[Logged] Strike Mission flight inappropriately loitering in target area

Post by boogabooga »

In the attached scenario, if one lets it play out, Quest49 flight does something that is a really bad idea. And comically so.

It seems that the AI wants to loiter around the target WP, which can become a huge problem in situations where that is not appropriate. Shotgun settings do not seem to help; issue seems to have to do with the AI waiting for the target to actually be destroyed before they move on. I'm having a lot of trouble intervening in the situation. The AI is not obeying manual waypoints during the Engage Offensive. Also, if I try to drop the target or drop all targets, the AI just re-designates them on its own. One could release all ordinance on one target, but that can be really wasteful overkill. The only other thing that seems to work is to un-assign them from the mission, but that has problems of its own in larger scenarios.

Any ideas?

Seems to me that a really useful setting in strike missions would be a 'one pass, haul a**' i.e. - disengage after releasing ordinance without regard to if the target actually gets hit.
Attachments
BadIdeaLoiterBug.zip
(29.21 KiB) Downloaded 2 times
The boogabooga doctrine for CMO: Any intentional human intervention needs to be able to completely and reliably over-ride anything that the AI is doing at any time.
cmanouser1
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RE: Strike Mission flight inappropriately loitering in target area

Post by cmanouser1 »

Tested it and I indeed can't get them to disengage unless:
A) they expand their 2 bombs (e.g. if ordered to fire 2 bombs, 1 unit will disengage, the other turns back at the target. If ordered 4, both disengage).
B) "x% of relevant weapons have been expended. Disengage immediately" is selected

Seems like this should be managed through the "Weapon state, pre-planned" and "weapon state RTB" doctrines but I can't get it to work. "One engagement with WVR or Strike weapons. Disengage immediately" doesn't work because, as per https://www.warfaresims.com/?p=4182, they "Continue fighting for as long as there are targets within easy reach and then disengage."

There seem to be issues overall with the "weapon state, pre-planned" doctrine and "weapon state RTB". For example:
1) "RTB when first aircraft in flight reaches weapon state" in "weapon state RTB" doesn't work in your save. Indeed, when selecting this and the "x% of relevant weapon", only the first aircraft goes RTB and the other stays on target, whereas we expect both to RTB.
2) the "x% of relevant weapons have been expended. Disengage immediately" has the aircraft RTB immediately. However "One engagement with WVR or Strike weapons. Disengage immediately", which has the same "disengage immediately" text, actually stays for extra targets.
boogabooga
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RE: Strike Mission flight inappropriately loitering in target area

Post by boogabooga »

ORIGINAL: cmanouser1

Seems like this should be managed through the "Weapon state, pre-planned" and "weapon state RTB" doctrines but I can't get it to work. "One engagement with WVR or Strike weapons. Disengage immediately" doesn't work because, as per https://www.warfaresims.com/?p=4182, they "Continue fighting for as long as there are targets within easy reach and then disengage."

I think that you hit the nail on the head; "engagement" is defined meaning target(s) destroyed and not just weapons released.

Also, ideally, I don't want them to RTB when they "disengage" ; I want them to fly to four separate targets and release one munition at each without sticking around any of them for very long.

Also, I want to mention that this is not just a one-off situation that only applies to nukes. There are many other situations where you would want to avoid a target area as much as possible like MANPAD infestation, AAA, etc.
The boogabooga doctrine for CMO: Any intentional human intervention needs to be able to completely and reliably over-ride anything that the AI is doing at any time.
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ronmexico111
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RE: Strike Mission flight inappropriately loitering in target area

Post by ronmexico111 »

ORIGINAL: boogabooga
ORIGINAL: cmanouser1

Seems like this should be managed through the "Weapon state, pre-planned" and "weapon state RTB" doctrines but I can't get it to work. "One engagement with WVR or Strike weapons. Disengage immediately" doesn't work because, as per https://www.warfaresims.com/?p=4182, they "Continue fighting for as long as there are targets within easy reach and then disengage."

I think that you hit the nail on the head; "engagement" is defined meaning target(s) destroyed and not just weapons released.

Also, ideally, I don't want them to RTB when they "disengage" ; I want them to fly to four separate targets and release one munition at each without sticking around any of them for very long.

Also, I want to mention that this is not just a one-off situation that only applies to nukes. There are many other situations where you would want to avoid a target area as much as possible like MANPAD infestation, AAA, etc.

I'm not knowledgeable with Lua by any means but would there be a way to set a manual engagement with say one munition on target 1 and once that's fired make it move on to target 2, engage with one munition, then move on to target 3 and so on? Or can manual engagements only be initiated by a human player?
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DWReese
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RE: Strike Mission flight inappropriately loitering in target area

Post by DWReese »

FWIW, I just set up a simple strike using one aircraft (armed with four bombs) and set up a mission to strike four separate targets (each about 50+ miles apart) by placing the targets into the target box. The plane's WRA was set to drop one bomb on each target. The mission began, and the plane (strike) was accomplished just as it was designed.

Every target (each separated by at least 50 miles from the next) was struck with one only bomb, coming from the same aircraft, exactly as was planned. So, I do know that this function works well.

Lua was not needed to accomplish this.

Doug
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ronmexico111
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RE: Strike Mission flight inappropriately loitering in target area

Post by ronmexico111 »

ORIGINAL: DWReese

FWIW, I just set up a simple strike using one aircraft (armed with four bombs) and set up a mission to strike four separate targets (each about 50+ miles apart) by placing the targets into the target box. The plane's WRA was set to drop one bomb on each target. The mission began, and the plane (strike) was accomplished just as it was designed.

Every target (each separated by at least 50 miles from the next) was struck with one only bomb, coming from the same aircraft, exactly as was planned. So, I do know that this function works well.

Lua was not needed to accomplish this.

Doug

I just set up a strike on 5 targets, WRA set to one weapon per salvo. The plane ignores the first target in the list, goes after the second one, and attacks that target until the target is supposed to be destroyed (which it is not, because it is using 500 lb. bombs on a hardened shelter). I can find no WRA setting for one weapon only per target, just per salvo. In my save, the plane is on it's way to the second target in the target list, why it ignored the first target is beyond me.

Note: I am using version 1.01.11474
Attachments
StrikeTut..mission.zip
(80.68 KiB) Not downloaded yet
"Never get out of the boat" Apocalypse Now
DWReese
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RE: Strike Mission flight inappropriately loitering in target area

Post by DWReese »

I highlight all four targets. It selects which to go after and in what order. I have NEVER been able to get the order of targets to work properly. I have seen that it will often pass up the closest one to go for a further one. Then, depending on its fuel, it will either go after one that is further, or go after the closer one.

The attack will make sure that it KILLS the target before moving on to the next. So, it's working properly.


It's called 1 Round when you want to fire just 1 bomb. I've had no problem doing that at all. perhaps we are talking about two different things.

Doug
boogabooga
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RE: Strike Mission flight inappropriately loitering in target area

Post by boogabooga »

ORIGINAL: DWReese

The attack will make sure that it KILLS the target before moving on to the next. So, it's working properly...perhaps we are talking about two different things.

Emphasis mine.

Right, we are talking about two different things. The highlighted part is actually the issue. I'm trying to get someone to release ordinance and disengage WITHOUT making sure that it kills the target, for when sticking around to do so is too dangerous.

What I have gotten to work is pressing control-E over and over for that flight to continuously keep dropping all targets. To explain the bug better, it is that manually dropped targets are automatically re-acquired during a strike mission and don't stay 'dropped'.





The boogabooga doctrine for CMO: Any intentional human intervention needs to be able to completely and reliably over-ride anything that the AI is doing at any time.
Rory Noonan
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RE: Strike Mission flight inappropriately loitering in target area

Post by Rory Noonan »

Logged for investigation.

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SteveMcClaire
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RE: Strike Mission flight inappropriately loitering in target area

Post by SteveMcClaire »

After further investigation, here a few things to help clarify the issues that have come up in this thread:

Units assigned to a strike mission attack the closest target first. They will re-attack a target until it's destroyed.

If you order a unit on a strike mission to drop targets or disengage they will re-acquire targets from the mission target list. And since the one they just attacked is probably the closest, they go after it again. If you want them to never attack a target again you'd need to remove it from the mission.

Strike missions with nukes may need some additional handling so the AI extends until after the nuke goes off. This is under discussion.

For the level of control you want you can manually plot the course and set targeting with SHIFT+F1 to allocate a single bomb to each of the targets. This way the aircraft don't linger or re-attack. See attached save for an example.
Attachments
Bad Idea L..argeting.zip
(23.35 KiB) Downloaded 2 times
boogabooga
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RE: Strike Mission flight inappropriately loitering in target area

Post by boogabooga »

Hello Steve, thanks for your consideration of this.

I appreciate the manual plotting and allocation, but the actual strike missions provide so much more in terms of tanker logistics, escorts, doctrine, etc. and are are really the way to go in a large scenario, IMO.

Really, I think my issue comes down to this: If I drop my target on a strike mission, I probably had a darn good reason to. Why does the AI need to re-acquire the target? This is the sort of issue that gives CMO the feeling of having to arm-wrestle the AI for control (but getting better). As a QOL upgrade, would you guys consider automatically removing from the strike list any target that the player manually drops (or perhaps a pop up asking if the player wants to do so)? Is that reasonable?

In the meantime, I think opening up the mission and manually removing the target might be the winning strategy.

Also, it's not only nukes; a target area infested with SHORADs is just as dangerous.
The boogabooga doctrine for CMO: Any intentional human intervention needs to be able to completely and reliably over-ride anything that the AI is doing at any time.
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