Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

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jking142
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Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by jking142 »

I just developed my first armored formation, and wanted to build a brigade (smallest unit with an HQ). I have the metal and industry, but apparently I do not have the oil. In fact, my entire civilization does not have the oil. The lifetime yield of one of my wells does not have that much oil. [I cannot imagine building the armored army that my staff developed!]

Does that seem a wee bit high? Is that intended?

Interestingly, on the build screen, it first states that I have 100% of the resources I need, but once I go to the unit page to execute, it fails (since I only have a fraction of that.)

Thanks for the guidance!
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Grotius
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by Grotius »

I wonder about this too. I've been very reluctant to build any motorized or mechanized unit.

And yes, the first screen of the build-formation interface isn't very clear about what is required. It just gives you percentages without telling you what's required or how much stuff you have on hand. The second screen (the one with the "build formation" button) does provide this info, but it would be nice if the first one did too.
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Thomas8
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by Thomas8 »

Show us what kind of unit you want to build - what is fuel usage of that unit. Building full brigade of tanks is not something you do normally - you start with independent batalion first (which you connect to one of the HQ) or with mixed troops.

Remember that tanks needs to have reserve of oil for 2 tuns * all the hexes they can move in one turn * oil usage * 5 units in batalion * 5 batalions (with my 7.8 oil guzzling light tank batalion its around 600 extra oil space needed to fill)
Tssha
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by Tssha »

Yeah, it doesn't seem to count fuel as a requirement to build the unit. Food too, if I recall correctly. It only tells you that you don't have enough on that second panel.

That number definitely seems excessive. I've never needed anywhere near that much fuel, and I'd want to see the unit that could even carry it!

Is your engine underpowered for the weight you've got on it? That can escalate your fuel requirements, though I never thought they'd escalate THAT high.

Might wanna keep a copy of that save file in case the dev wants to see it.
Thomas8
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by Thomas8 »

No, it does seem to be all right, my light tank batalion eats 600, so entire Brigade would be 3000. If he has oil usage for medium or heavy tank within 40-45 then he can easily have need of 18000 oil for entire Brigade.
Destragon
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by Destragon »

I think oil usage has been toned down somewhat in the current beta update, by the way. I dunno by how much exactly though.
ORIGINAL: jking142

Interestingly, on the build screen, it first states that I have 100% of the resources I need, but once I go to the unit page to execute, it fails (since I only have a fraction of that.)
I noticed that, too. Kinda odd.
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KingHalford
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by KingHalford »

Vehicle weight is more important than you might think, particularly with tanks. It's tempting to just go with the heaviest design you can make but the fuel consumption and weight (for strategic movement) is a serious consideration. 18,000 sounds like a lot but then again that brigade will be extremely powerful and in the late game on the right planet you can be pulling thousands out of the ground per turn so it's not as much as it sounds. An Oil Drilling Facility Level II extracts up to 1000 per turn, you could quite easily have 9 of those in your territory within the first 50-75 turns so that's two turns of oil production. If you can get some larger cities, Oil Drilling Facility Level IV produces 2000 per turn.

Of course, if you're on a planet without a lot of natural fuel, you're gonna have to get your industry up to the point where you can be synthesising it, and there are plenty of techs to synthesise fuel in different ways.
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by JWW »

Vic posted this a a change for 1.03 beta 6

-Tuned down the Fuel Cost quit a bit for the heavier engines in big size models *

*asterisk means may not take effect until new game.

So perhaps that addresses the problem. I don't play the betas so I wouldn't be able to say what effect this might have.
jking142
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by jking142 »

Will wait for the patch, thank you.
zgrssd
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

Vic posted this a a change for 1.03 beta 6

-Tuned down the Fuel Cost quit a bit for the heavier engines in big size models *

*asterisk means may not take effect until new game.

So perhaps that addresses the problem. I don't play the betas so I wouldn't be able to say what effect this might have.
At least the light tank with the Light Engine still east 1.6 Fuel/Hex. I have to wait till I get a design council before I know how the bigger ones work now.
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zgrssd
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: jking142

Sorry I don't see how to post an image here.

The armored brigade surely is normal if the game offers me an armored army? I do have armored battalions, but they do not have HQs, which stunts their potential. This is the smallest organized unit the game allows, which seems like it should be perfectly normal.

The armored brigade requires medium tanks or assault guns; it will not allow me light tanks. (Presumably that is a different bureaucratic design?)

So my assault guns and turreted tanks have a fuel use of 46 per hex. In comparison, my truck is 3/hex, buggy is 3, APC is 5, light tank is 11. Mechanized artillery is 77, Mech QMG is 9. Please note that none of these fuel ratings were visible when designing the unit: only specific inputs were offered, such as main gun caliber, armor thickness, and engine. (Yes I chose maximum for each; Go big....)

The resulting combat values are a complete surprise once the model is developed. I admit I would not mind seeing the expected values before going through development. If indeed there is some experiential knowledge involved in choosing the inputs for a viable configuration, I propose that those be illuminated in the game itself. Indeed, why else did I hire that Director? If it is obvious to someone that the design won't work, failing to hint that is just a prank on a new-ish player.

Anyway, it sounds like what you are pointing out to me is that my 270 tanks moving one hex costs 1242 fuel. Can we agree that this is ridiculous? Thank goodness I didn't need artillery.... Even my light tanks (if available as a brigade) would require 300 fuel per hex. That is the output of an entire oil well. So to support a single light tank brigade would require the full output of a dozen oil fields.

Does that sound like a reasonable ratio? To be honest, it feels way off to me. I have on average two deposits per zone in this game, which is in line with my prior playthroughs. Requiring an entire zone to support a single light tank battalion doesn't seem to align with the progression of the game. The physical scope of a zone is so big that a single unit can hold less than 1% of it's territory. And any armored doctrine requires concentrated force, which doesn't sound materially possible given these proportions.

Would be grateful to hear how anyone has implemented a blitzkrieg.

Thanks!
- You can attach up to 2 Independant units to a OHQ. That way they can benefit from the Skills and Postures.
- You can always make independant Units. The Staff council is responsible for develop "Orders of Battle" and instutionionalize them (give you the 3 Size Options).
- effective values of anything depend on the designers skill and luck. So the game can not tell you more yet. The tooltip for options has a running total for the weight wich helps somewhat with the engine.
- those numbers are 46 Fuel per unit? Do you not mean 46 Fuel storage? Or 4.6?
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olin0111
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by olin0111 »

I double checked it ingame. According to my calculations you need 2730 fuel for a light tank brigade for 2 turns that is moving pretty quickly (7 hexes).

Details:
10 light tanks subunit uses 7.8 fuel
50 tanks in batallion = 39
5 batallions = 195
7 hexes traversed = 1365
2 turns = 2730

If you have medium tanks that use 15 fuel that's gonna be 5250. Heavy tank brigade that uses 60 fuel per subunit will need 21000.
That's before fuel optimisation although I'm not sure how much it would cut provided it's researched up to 100%. Also the fuel usage for heavier tanks has apparently been changed in the newest beta. I haven't played enough to see how much.

To sum up, it's not that bad for light tanks but you can forget about rolling with an armored army unless you are producing zillion tons of fuel and/or have plenty of upgraded fuel depots :)
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KingHalford
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by KingHalford »

Moral of the story: don't try to use formations you haven't got the infrastructure to sustain.

I recommend you check out the different technologies in the tree, and the different fuel outputs of the various structures you can make. Then these large fuel costs associated with producing and running large armoured formations suddenly make more sense. Also note that since armour is very strong and that on some planets there may be nearly no terrain that stops them, there has to be some kind of limitation to their use, and fuel costs provide on such limitation until you're industry is ready to sustain it.
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76mm
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by 76mm »

Strange, in my last game, I had a light tank brigade and a medium tank brigade and they didn't consume nearly that much oil...as long as they were in supply range it wasn't hard keeping them in fuel. I did notice though, that even though sometimes they went black because of lack of fuel even when they were getting adequate supplies of different types, not sure why.
Tomn
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by Tomn »

ORIGINAL: olin0111

I double checked it ingame. According to my calculations you need 2730 fuel for a light tank brigade for 2 turns that is moving pretty quickly (7 hexes).

Details:
10 light tanks subunit uses 7.8 fuel
50 tanks in batallion = 39
5 batallions = 195
7 hexes traversed = 1365
2 turns = 2730

If you have medium tanks that use 15 fuel that's gonna be 5250. Heavy tank brigade that uses 60 fuel per subunit will need 21000.
That's before fuel optimisation although I'm not sure how much it would cut provided it's researched up to 100%. Also the fuel usage for heavier tanks has apparently been changed in the newest beta. I haven't played enough to see how much.

To sum up, it's not that bad for light tanks but you can forget about rolling with an armored army unless you are producing zillion tons of fuel and/or have plenty of upgraded fuel depots :)

It's worth noting that these numbers aren't necessarily on point even without fuel optimization - they depend on your design, too. The more underpowered your engine is, the more fuel it consumes - conversely, the more overpowered, the less fuel. And the effectiveness of your engine design can affect that calculation as well.
Cornuthaum
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by Cornuthaum »

I honestly don't know why formations above Brigade size even exist in shadow empire. You will never have enough population for them, even if you have the IP/metal/other resources to outfit 120000 soldiers with heavy battledress and plasma guns and high-end armored assets.
t1it
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by t1it »

Planet generation and the 101 other factors are too numerous and diverse to make such general statements in this game.
Pop/recruits is the least of my concerns even in combat-y Worlds like Medusa with lots T-Rex's. There's always one resource I don't want to get too much of a shortage of (usually metal and oil but sometimes rare metals) but population/recruits are non-issues once your cities are developed with all necessities + good governors.

By mid-game I usually want 2 [Mechanized] Heavy Siege Grenadier Corps and 1 Light armored brigade. I Always form these as soon as they're available and not short on Resources, which I usually am but that resource is never recruits.
YMMV.
Dampfnudel
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by Dampfnudel »

If you have an amazing capability V officer you want him to lead more than brigades.
zgrssd
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: Tomn

ORIGINAL: olin0111

I double checked it ingame. According to my calculations you need 2730 fuel for a light tank brigade for 2 turns that is moving pretty quickly (7 hexes).

Details:
10 light tanks subunit uses 7.8 fuel
50 tanks in batallion = 39
5 batallions = 195
7 hexes traversed = 1365
2 turns = 2730

If you have medium tanks that use 15 fuel that's gonna be 5250. Heavy tank brigade that uses 60 fuel per subunit will need 21000.
That's before fuel optimisation although I'm not sure how much it would cut provided it's researched up to 100%. Also the fuel usage for heavier tanks has apparently been changed in the newest beta. I haven't played enough to see how much.

To sum up, it's not that bad for light tanks but you can forget about rolling with an armored army unless you are producing zillion tons of fuel and/or have plenty of upgraded fuel depots :)

It's worth noting that these numbers aren't necessarily on point even without fuel optimization - they depend on your design, too. The more underpowered your engine is, the more fuel it consumes - conversely, the more overpowered, the less fuel. And the effectiveness of your engine design can affect that calculation as well.
Incorrect, but a common mistake.
Engine Design only affects the Effective Weight Capacity, not fuel cost.
There was however some bug in displaying the right fuel costs in the design screen, engine selection. That caused the misconception.
DW2 Poll:
"Should the Civil and non-Combat Ships loose all or most of their weapon slots?"
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=382690
olin0111
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RE: Armored Brigade needs 18000 oil?

Post by olin0111 »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
ORIGINAL: Tomn

ORIGINAL: olin0111

I double checked it ingame. According to my calculations you need 2730 fuel for a light tank brigade for 2 turns that is moving pretty quickly (7 hexes).

Details:
10 light tanks subunit uses 7.8 fuel
50 tanks in batallion = 39
5 batallions = 195
7 hexes traversed = 1365
2 turns = 2730

If you have medium tanks that use 15 fuel that's gonna be 5250. Heavy tank brigade that uses 60 fuel per subunit will need 21000.
That's before fuel optimisation although I'm not sure how much it would cut provided it's researched up to 100%. Also the fuel usage for heavier tanks has apparently been changed in the newest beta. I haven't played enough to see how much.

To sum up, it's not that bad for light tanks but you can forget about rolling with an armored army unless you are producing zillion tons of fuel and/or have plenty of upgraded fuel depots :)

It's worth noting that these numbers aren't necessarily on point even without fuel optimization - they depend on your design, too. The more underpowered your engine is, the more fuel it consumes - conversely, the more overpowered, the less fuel. And the effectiveness of your engine design can affect that calculation as well.
Incorrect, but a common mistake.
Engine Design only affects the Effective Weight Capacity, not fuel cost.
There was however some bug in displaying the right fuel costs in the design screen, engine selection. That caused the misconception.

Just to chime in on the over or undepowered engine. I was under the impression that, contrary to what Tomn said, the underpowered engine used less fuel so effectively you had a tradeoff - go with smaller engine that uses less fuel and get a negative movement modifier or go with bigger engine that burns more fuel and get a positive modifier. If the size of the engine does not effect the fuel cost what is stopping the player from always using the biggest one?
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