Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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chuckbbq
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Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by chuckbbq »

Playing GC as the Axis for the first time in 1.12 and my Soviet opponent has been hammering my airbases every turn. on turn 9 I had enough. First thing I did was send my airbases back to the railhead, 3 to a hex, load them up with flak, transfer my fighters so they had 1% flown, cranked up intercept on the air doctrine all the way and turned off ground support. I open turn 10, check his airbase bombing attacks and, well, see below. Typical bombing, 58 fighters intercept and 165 pieces of flak participate, only for me to lose 10 Fighters and 4 Bombers and Soviet loses a whopping 5 Fighters. It seem like the only time I inflict substantial losses is when 100+ fighters participate. In fact, it's so bad, I lost around 100 fighters last turn, my fighter pool will be drained in no time. He bombs a quarter of the units on my line now, and takes insignificant losses. Am I missing something, or is the air war complete FUBAR in 1.12? This is extremely frustrating, and if this continues my fighter pool will be drained in no time. And it's summer 1941, I can't imagine what it'll be like in later years. Is anyone else experiencing the same thing? I don't remember it being this bad in previous versions.



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Telemecus
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by Telemecus »

There is an interception bug and you can see the details here https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4809464

Based on your description though your fighter fatigue should be sky high now making your fighters worthless - it is not until you have a rotation to have fresh fighters that they will actually do their job.

And finally your airbases are in fighter range of the enemy, even in range of I-15 fighters. The very minimum you should be doing now is keeping them out of Soviet fighter range. That is easy! You have much longer range fighters than the Soviets do and on your internal lines you can have staging bases to conduct air missions to extend range even further. Given the position you say you are in there is no way you should allow them to escort bombers to your airbases.
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Telemecus
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by Telemecus »

double post
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chuckbbq
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by chuckbbq »

ORIGINAL: Telemecus



Based on your description though your fighter fatigue should be sky high now making your fighters worthless - it is not until you have a rotation to have fresh fighters that they will actually do their job.


That's the surprising part, not at all! Almost all were under 20 fatigue. I keep a fresh rotation, it doesn't seem to help. The airbase from my screenshot is 12 hexes behind the lines, maybe 15 from a Russian airbase. How much further back do they need to be?



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Telemecus
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by Telemecus »

ORIGINAL: chuckbbq
That's the surprising part, not at all! Almost all were under 20 fatigue. I keep a fresh rotation, it doesn't seem to help. The airbase from my screenshot is 12 hexes behind the lines, maybe 15 from a Russian airbase. How much further back do they need to be?

Ah OK on fatigue - is their morale still close to or above their base morale?

MiG3s from memory have a range of 19 hexes and is their longest range fighter so need to be out of range of that. On a later turn they have very long range P40B fighters which you do not have to worry about but hurricanes which you do and they have twenty something range - so keep outside of them when their turn to arrive is up.
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Telemecus
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by Telemecus »

Just seen the screenshot. The morale is quite good although some like IIJG51 and IJG54 do need to be cycled through national reserve.

Also I notice you have replacements on for all fighter groups including the ones about to withdraw. That alone will mean you lose a couple more hundred fighters that way?

Overall then I would say you can recover quickly if you get your airbases out of escort range for now.
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chuckbbq
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by chuckbbq »

ORIGINAL: Telemecus


Also I notice you have replacements on for all fighter groups including the ones about to withdraw. That alone will mean you lose a couple more hundred fighters that way?


I always thought that when an airgroup withdrew, that the physical planes returned to the pool, it was the unit itself capable of carrying the planes that withdrew. Have I had that wrong this entire time? Are the planes lost once it withdraws?
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by Telemecus »

ORIGINAL: chuckbbq
I always thought that when an airgroup withdrew, that the physical planes returned to the pool, it was the unit itself capable of carrying the planes that withdrew. Have I had that wrong this entire time? Are the planes lost once it withdraws?

I am afraid so - withdraw means you lose the lot. Watch out in your arrivals/withdraws schedule for when it says "disband" - in those cases you do keep the planes in the pool. But when it says withdraw, then not.
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by caliss39 »

Playing Barbarossa and ever time the Russians use their air power it does some damage to my units. Every time I use my air power it never does any damage to them(except for bombing airports. I even got all my planes on just one of Russias unit and no damage what so ever. What the story.
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by Bozo_the_Clown »

Playing Barbarossa and ever time the Russians use their air power it does some damage to my units. Every time I use my air power it never does any damage to them(except for bombing airports. I even got all my planes on just one of Russias unit and no damage what so ever. What the story.

Sorry, but you are doing something wrong if you get these results.
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Telemecus
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by Telemecus »

Why not post screenshots - we can work out what is going wrong for you?
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by Disgruntled Veteran »

It's the same for me. I've lost over 1k planes to airfield bombing by T14. That's more planes lost on the ground than probably all my 12-14 WITE games combined. Its still only T14. I'm probably going to disband my airforce in this game for manpower. I really want to quit this one, but I'll stick it out.

The solution is not to move the luftwaffe 15+ hexes behind the line. That's retarded. Airpower is partially broken in 1.12. I could see the Red air force launching raids in high numbers and achieving results, but their losses should be much higher, especially in 41. Right now they are getting a 3 to 1 kill ratio minimum against a fresh luftwaffe.

This is stupid.
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by Bozo_the_Clown »

The next patch might fix this but why not have a house rule to disallow airfield bombings after turn 1. I find them unrealistic and boring/tedious anyway.
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

It's the same for me. I've lost over 1k planes to airfield bombing by T14. That's more planes lost on the ground than probably all my 12-14 WITE games combined. Its still only T14. I'm probably going to disband my airforce in this game for manpower. I really want to quit this one, but I'll stick it out.

The solution is not to move the luftwaffe 15+ hexes behind the line. That's retarded. Airpower is partially broken in 1.12. I could see the Red air force launching raids in high numbers and achieving results, but their losses should be much higher, especially in 41. Right now they are getting a 3 to 1 kill ratio minimum against a fresh luftwaffe.

This is stupid.

I feel sorry for you to suffer such a fate. I admire your tenacity but you and your opponent should know this is not right. To me the solution is not to play at all in 12.x at the moment or have an agreement to have no airbase bombing.
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

The next patch might fix this but why not have a house rule to disallow airfield bombings after turn 1. I find them unrealistic and boring/tedious anyway.

Agreed.
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by redrum68 »

The key in v1.12 seems to be ensuring each of the hexes with airbases has say 2-3 fresh fighter air groups. These will intercept in large numbers when directly bombed and tear apart Soviet fighters/bombers. But you can not at all rely on those fighters intercepting in large numbers anything but their own hex in my experience.
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by Bozo_the_Clown »

The air war in WitE is broken. I also find it incredibly tedious and boring. So why not agree to a house rule. HLYA suggested to only allow ground bombings in preparation for an actual attack. That might work but it would definitely be a huge advantage for the Axis in 41 because the Russians don't attack that much until blizzard. Maybe it would be better to establish a limit of 10 ground bombings per turn per side? Airbase bombing should be completely disallowed after turn 1.

The game is so much more fun without this.

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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by eskuche »

I respect anyone's decision to make this a house rule but as someone who has invested time and effort into my little plane groups I would find it appalling :). Airbase bombing should never be an issue given both sides know how to play. Just pull back behind escort range.

I can support a ground bombing limit, however, as (and I will keep parroting this) Soviet unit-bombing can almost outstrip German replacements, as discussed elsewhere. I think 25 tac bombing missions is reasonable for the latter. LB bombing is meh generally except for the fatigue you can perpetrate on infantry regiments so should still be unlimited.
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

The air war in WitE is broken. I also find it incredibly tedious and boring. So why not agree to a house rule. HLYA suggested to only allow ground bombings in preparation for an actual attack. That might work but it would definitely be a huge advantage for the Axis in 41 because the Russians don't attack that much until blizzard. Maybe it would be better to establish a limit of 10 ground bombings per turn per side? Airbase bombing should be completely disallowed after turn 1.

The game is so much more fun without this.


I 100% agree WitE air war is broken hence why I came out with possible house rules to compensate. I like the limit of 10 hexes a turn for ground bombing. That way the Airforce is used for ground support.
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RE: Air War FUBAR in 1.12??

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: eskuche

I respect anyone's decision to make this a house rule but as someone who has invested time and effort into my little plane groups I would find it appalling :). Airbase bombing should never be an issue given both sides know how to play. Just pull back behind escort range.

I can support a ground bombing limit, however, as (and I will keep parroting this) Soviet unit-bombing can almost outstrip German replacements, as discussed elsewhere. I think 25 tac bombing missions is reasonable for the latter. LB bombing is meh generally except for the fatigue you can perpetrate on infantry regiments so should still be unlimited.

LB's can be very effective in the early years before your IL2's are a major force. Let me refine this down a little bit. HEAVY LB's (not PE's and SB's) can be very effective in the early years before your IL2's are a major force. So my questions are, "How do you have your LB's organized? How many per base? How many bases fly together? What targets are you attacking with the HLB's?"

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