The logistic System is a gigantic mess

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GodwinW
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by GodwinW »

Again, I fully admit not having played in long games on large planets. So that should be a caveat on the importance of what I say (for those specific situations).

Thought about it as well.
I am also seriously against making it demand-based.
For me the fun is in predicting needs and taking care of your empire in a hands-on way. I like micromanagement actually. Yes, weird, I guess. But I like it. It makes me really feel in control and really makes me feel like the architect of this empire I'm leading.
If I have a road going nowhere (say troops went away 10 turns ago), and it still takes 20% of my zone's logistics, that's on me. My fault. I like that. If I then run into an issue, I see: oh yeah! I can just put a traffic sign there.

In an on-demand system, the only time I run into issues I have to build more truck stops, longer/better roads or a supply station. Problem -> build. Period.
I cannot get a break by smartly figuring out the precise issue and like a surgeon handling it.
There won't be any reward for me taking the time to investigate and act.

Moreover, if I do not want to figure out the issue precisely I can still build more Truck Stops etc. to solve it as well. It's just that now I have a way to solve it in a smarter more efficient way. And I love that.
I love getting rewarded for engrossing myself in the complexity of systems. That alone makes a really fun game for me.

With just on-demand the whole focus would shift. I'd be mostly a manager of armies and a bit of infrastructure and relations. I would feel less connected to my empire, less invested, less the architect.

With the current system I can choose to take the time and predict where I should post a traffic sign because there won't be any need for Logistics over there next turn. I like that. I feel good because I took the time and had the awareness to check beforehand and get the reward of smooth logistics next turn. With an on-demand system I needn't bother at all. And I will lose something really fun.
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GodwinW
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by GodwinW »

I do not like introducing a cost to it as it would probably become prohibitive or doesn't do much, depending on your game's scale. It doesn't scale well.
Also, you'd almost need a 'trial system' then because I could be fiddling with signs a bit: is 80% good, or 95% good? Now I doubled my cost. I'd feel bad for just fiddling.
So no.

But I do really understand your point and it's a great point.

Just not sure if it's a great point for this system.

Let me think...

Ok, what I can see is a building called 'Logistics Manager Training Center'. Can only be built in hexes with an SHQ.
Every turn that there are 0 black bottlenecks the Logistics Managers there get xp.
After a number of turns from having the building operational (maybe 25? could maybe scale with map size or speed setting), they graduate and under the Governor's Zone you can set 'Appoint Logistics Manager' (it's a tick box).

Now all Logistics of that zone are handled perfectly.

It saves you the trouble of dealing with older zones that don't really have your focus anyway. Newer zones (newer SHQ's) still need to be managed though.
Balance can be done by building cost, xp gain, xp gain constraints, xp requirement to 'graduate', appointment cost even if that's desired. Lots of knobs.

Cost/upkeep should be high enough so that people like me can still micromanage ourselves and save a non-trivial amount of resources.

The only problem I see here is that it might be very difficult to program a system that handles logistics 100% efficiently, because if that was easy Vic would have definitely done so for the AI!
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by DeltaV112 »

My response would be that as-is, having a penalty to changing traffic signs would make the game unplayable when conquering a major. They build a huge mess of roads and then need many, many traffic signs to get any throughput past it. You'd also run into that problem with shortages related to sudden demand/supply shocks, when you might need to alter supply flow to get as much as possible out of the shortage.

Placing limits to prevent micro has its place but I don't think supply is it. It's basically putting a more annoying tax on an already annoying issue and will just penalize mistakes harshly(i.e. now you need to get your sign placement right on the first try) and making it a serious balance concern. As-is it's just a time sink, making it drain PP or reduce BP generation has broader implications.

I don't think that making a system automated means it shouldn't be in the game as long as the player has meaningful interactions with it and can impact how it behaves. Like obviously you can't control how the AI behaves but we should obviously have AI opponents in the game! For a less extreme example, take how pops choose to become workers and move between cities. This is pretty important as many assets start consuming a lot of population to function by mid-game. You have control to influence how pops move but ultimately it's out of your hands what they do.

For that same reason I think demand-based logistics would be fine as a system. You would still have the ability to influence supply availability by building logistical assets and paths and by controlling hexes, it would just take out the tedious micromanagement portion of it.

I hear the refrain of "build more truck stops" repeatedly, the issue I have is that truck stops are actually kind of expensive! They take up quite a lot of workers and workers get to be increasingly scarce as the game goes on. Rail helps, especially as the AI doesn't build messy rail networks and you can strictly limit where rail lines are, but rail assets are extremely expensive and rail lines considerably so.
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KingHalford
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by KingHalford »

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

Again, I fully admit not having played in long games on large planets. So that should be a caveat on the importance of what I say (for those specific situations).

Thought about it as well.
I am also seriously against making it demand-based.
For me the fun is in predicting needs and taking care of your empire in a hands-on way. I like micromanagement actually. Yes, weird, I guess. But I like it. It makes me really feel in control and really makes me feel like the architect of this empire I'm leading.
If I have a road going nowhere (say troops went away 10 turns ago), and it still takes 20% of my zone's logistics, that's on me. My fault. I like that. If I then run into an issue, I see: oh yeah! I can just put a traffic sign there.

In an on-demand system, the only time I run into issues I have to build more truck stops, longer/better roads or a supply station. Problem -> build. Period.
I cannot get a break by smartly figuring out the precise issue and like a surgeon handling it.
There won't be any reward for me taking the time to investigate and act.

Moreover, if I do not want to figure out the issue precisely I can still build more Truck Stops etc. to solve it as well. It's just that now I have a way to solve it in a smarter more efficient way. And I love that.
I love getting rewarded for engrossing myself in the complexity of systems. That alone makes a really fun game for me.

With just on-demand the whole focus would shift. I'd be mostly a manager of armies and a bit of infrastructure and relations. I would feel less connected to my empire, less invested, less the architect.

With the current system I can choose to take the time and predict where I should post a traffic sign because there won't be any need for Logistics over there next turn. I like that. I feel good because I took the time and had the awareness to check beforehand and get the reward of smooth logistics next turn. With an on-demand system I needn't bother at all. And I will lose something really fun.

This is how I feel pretty much to the letter.

I don't like the idea of messing with it at all in all honesty. My suggestion to add a cost was merely one to discourage people from feeling like they're missing out if they don't keep changing the Traffic Lights every single turn.
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by WeaverofBrokenThreads »

I rest my case at this point. I won't go into demand/supply system anymore. I think Vic by now probably has ideas on how to address the issue. The additions of different road types, for example, can deliver the best of both worlds. MSR vs ASR, etc. Considering Vic seems to know his military stuff, I am sure he has considered this more than all of us combined.

But there is one thing I just want to point out. I am also a fan of complexity. If you ever read any of my reviews and how I've bashed 99.9% of games out there today, you would know that we're cut from the same cloth. So if I, of all people, go 'Hey, this might need changing', expect that there will be backlash on the steam page. I've mainly championed this issue for that reason at all. I want SE to succeed, and you'll find that in my first post I say that this should be addressed before the steam release. That is to say, I've shared my opinion in hopes that Vic will see it and consider it, not necessarily to try and convince you all to join the LIS Cult, which is superior to all other cults, for LIS is life.

To be fair, I have not approached the game in the same way BATTLEMODE has; he was writing a comprehensive article on the systems, whereas I was just looking for a game I thought I would hate and ended up falling in love with - yes, even with the logistics system the way it is now. So as far as I am concerned, BATTLEMODE is the authority on this, and if he says it is good, then that is that.

Personally, I am just glad that worker transport doesn't take LIS... my personal feelings on the system itself are on neither side of the fence. I only agreed that it doesn't make sense. It is a bit of a jarring experience to see trucks going nowhere, delivering blessed LIS to nothing and no one.

EDIT: Ok, I suppose my initial post was with a bit more conviction than I intended. I do support the idea of switching to a demand based system simply because it will remove the negatives of the supply system, and improve success on the steam store. But personally, I don't really care either way.
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KingHalford
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by KingHalford »

ORIGINAL: WeaverofBrokenThreads

I rest my case at this point. I won't go into demand/supply system anymore. I think Vic by now probably has ideas on how to address the issue. The additions of different road types, for example, can deliver the best of both worlds. MSR vs ASR, etc. Considering Vic seems to know his military stuff, I am sure he has considered this more than all of us combined.

But there is one thing I just want to point out. I am also a fan of complexity. If you ever read any of my reviews and how I've bashed 99.9% of games out there today, you would know that we're cut from the same cloth. So if I, of all people, go 'Hey, this might need changing', expect that there will be backlash on the steam page. I've mainly championed this issue for that reason at all. I want SE to succeed, and you'll find that in my first post I say that this should be addressed before the steam release. That is to say, I've shared my opinion in hopes that Vic will see it and consider it, not necessarily to try and convince you all to join the LIS Cult, which is superior to all other cults, for LIS is life.

To be fair, I have not approached the game in the same way BATTLEMODE has; he was writing a comprehensive article on the systems, whereas I was just looking for a game I thought I would hate and ended up falling in love with - yes, even with the logistics system the way it is now. So as far as I am concerned, BATTLEMODE is the authority on this, and if he says it is good, then that is that.

Personally, I am just glad that worker transport doesn't take LIS... my personal feelings on the system itself are on neither side of the fence. I only agreed that it doesn't make sense. It is a bit of a jarring experience to see trucks going nowhere, delivering blessed LIS to nothing and no one.

I'm no authority, I give that honour to the beta-testers or DasTactic with his excellent tutorial series. My only claim here is that I have played it way more than a reasonable person would :)

I completely understand why you're saying this and I agree with much of it. I didn't consider the Steam angle either, but I think on that one... well... Steam is Steam, and Steam players are Steam players and some of them will bitch about even the most stupid of things, so there's likely nothing that can be done. To give Steam credit, it's big, and for every person who downvotes a game because they can't figure out how it works, there's one who gets it and will do their best to defend it from the ... less positive people. (I'm trying to be polite here)
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by WeaverofBrokenThreads »

First of all, using all caps for your nickname is brilliant. BATTLEMODE is so nice to type.

Second of all, if we ever play MP together, I won't fight you. I will build a road system so convoluted that the very idea of managing traffic lights on it dissuades you from attacking me.

That was a joke. I'll bomb you with missiles. All day. All night.

As an aside, I don't remember who it was that said that LIS is iconic, but for my next playthrough, and every playthrough forevermore, my goal will not be to conquer the galaxy and reform the republic... it will be to deliver blessed LIS to all barbaric corners of the world.

Make way, marauders. My trucks are coming through.
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by KingHalford »

ORIGINAL: WeaverofBrokenThreads

First of all, using all caps for your nickname is brilliant. BATTLEMODE is so nice to type.

Second of all, if we ever play MP together, I won't fight you. I will build a road system so convoluted that the very idea of managing traffic lights on it dissuades you from attacking me.

That was a joke. I'll bomb you with missiles. All day. All night.

As an aside, I don't remember who it was that said that LIS is iconic, but for my next playthrough, and every playthrough forevermore, my goal will not be to conquer the galaxy and reform the republic... it will be to deliver blessed LIS to all barbaric corners of the world.

Make way, marauders. My trucks are coming through.

I shall quake in fear at your sophisticated use of the holy LIS.
Ben "BATTLEMODE"
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KingHalford
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by KingHalford »

And BATTLEMODE comes from that most ancient of grognard classics, "Super Mario Kart" (and I used to make music under that name and it stuck)
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willgamer
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by willgamer »

An interesting facet of the game is its unprecedented interactions of dynamic subsystems that are static in most games.

Using LIS as an example (there are dozens of others), there are the interactions of-

* the static demand of assets with the dynamic draw of troops moving through

* the static demand of assets increasing as upgrades are performed

* the increasing need for truck and supply depots with the need to build new cities to prevent administrative strain

* the dynamic nature of administrative strain as it includes private assets you don't control, but must build LIS for

* as LIS assets expand more people (may be limited in number) are needed to staff them

Bottom Line: a massive number of things would need to change if LIS were fundamentally altered.


Keep LIS with tweaks (delete roads) to make it better.
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KingHalford
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by KingHalford »

ORIGINAL: willgamer

An interesting facet of the game is its unprecedented interactions of dynamic subsystems that are static in most games.

Using LIS as an example (there are dozens of others), there are the interactions of-

* the static demand of assets with the dynamic draw of troops moving through

* the static demand of assets increasing as upgrades are performed

* the increasing need for truck and supply depots with the need to build new cities to prevent administrative strain

* the dynamic nature of administrative strain as it includes private assets you don't control, but must build LIS for

* as LIS assets expand more people (may be limited in number) are needed to staff them

Bottom Line: a massive number of things would need to change if LIS were fundamentally altered.


Keep LIS with tweaks (delete roads) to make it better.

This is great, I might have to quote this when I do a follow up article to give the game a final rating Will. It accurately sums up something I couldn't really describe about how this system operates.
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by AttuWatcher »

It's not that bad. It just needs to have the free AI roads for majors problem improved / changed / removed and there won't be so much of the big bad scary road spaghetti.

If deleting roads were to be added, deleting each segment should cost the same as building it, and it could possibly be tied to a tech that needs to be researched like "Demolition Engineers" or something.

Overall I actually like the system, but any system that has a great deal of complexity and player control will be a point of obsession for min/maxers.
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GodwinW
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by GodwinW »

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

I do not like introducing a cost to it as it would probably become prohibitive or doesn't do much, depending on your game's scale. It doesn't scale well.
Also, you'd almost need a 'trial system' then because I could be fiddling with signs a bit: is 80% good, or 95% good? Now I doubled my cost. I'd feel bad for just fiddling.
So no.

But I do really understand your point and it's a great point.

Just not sure if it's a great point for this system.

Let me think...

Ok, what I can see is a building called 'Logistics Manager Training Center'. Can only be built in hexes with an SHQ.
Every turn that there are 0 black bottlenecks the Logistics Managers there get xp.
After a number of turns from having the building operational (maybe 25? could maybe scale with map size or speed setting), they graduate and under the Governor's Zone you can set 'Appoint Logistics Manager' (it's a tick box).

Now all Logistics of that zone are handled perfectly.

It saves you the trouble of dealing with older zones that don't really have your focus anyway. Newer zones (newer SHQ's) still need to be managed though.
Balance can be done by building cost, xp gain, xp gain constraints, xp requirement to 'graduate', appointment cost even if that's desired. Lots of knobs.

Cost/upkeep should be high enough so that people like me can still micromanage ourselves and save a non-trivial amount of resources.

The only problem I see here is that it might be very difficult to program a system that handles logistics 100% efficiently, because if that was easy Vic would have definitely done so for the AI!

What did you think of this idea as an alternative to what you proposed, KingHalford?

And just to add my voice to willgamer's post: yes! Roads definitely need to be able to be removed.
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76mm
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by 76mm »

ORIGINAL: AttuWatcher
If deleting roads were to be added, deleting each segment should cost the same as building it, and it could possibly be tied to a tech that needs to be researched like "Demolition Engineers" or something.
Why over-engineer this? "Deleting" roads should be as simple to putting up a barricade in front of it with a "ROAD CLOSED" sign--it's not rocket science.

I'm still just getting into the game, but at this point it seems to me like if the easiest way to get supplies to the right place is to destroy roads, there is something wrong....
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GodwinW
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by GodwinW »

I want it for aesthetics. You can do exactly what you say: put a traffic sign on the road and voila.

But it still can be nice to remove unwanted roads from an aesthetics point of view and also deleting some roads permanently may make it easier (less traffic signs to check up on).

I don't think it should be costly. I think it may even be fine if it was free. Just let nature take over.
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by 76mm »

ORIGINAL: GodwinW
I want it for aesthetics. You can do exactly what you say: put a traffic sign on the road and voila.

But it still can be nice to remove unwanted roads from an aesthetics point of view and also deleting some roads permanently may make it easier (less traffic signs to check up on).
Sure, I understand the desire to remove unwanted roads from the game map. But that doesn't mean that that should represent--in game terms--that the roads are physically torn up from start to finish.

Removing roads from the game map should be instantaneous and free--as easy as putting up "road closed" barriers at each end of the removed road.
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by Dampfnudel »

Considering the amount of replies I think I started the right topic.

Basically we all can agree that it is great to have a logistical system in the game, using Capacity and Range.

Vic please give us a pull/demand based system without traffic signs needed (but allowed).

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GodwinW
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by GodwinW »

That's why I said it can maybe be free. The only problem with that is temporary incursion into an enemy human player's area to quickly delete some roads and then withdraw which is a bit of a pain.

To Dampfnudel: that's not at all the conclusion we came to or agree on ;)
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by willgamer »

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel


Vic please give us a pull/demand based system without traffic signs needed (but allowed).


NOT agreed![:-]
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by 76mm »

ORIGINAL: GodwinW
The only problem with that is temporary incursion into an enemy human player's area to quickly delete some roads and then withdraw which is a bit of a pain.
As long as you can only destroy roads in hexes that you control, I don't see why this is unrealistic either--with a little bit of basic explosives in the right spot, a unit could quickly and easily damage a road to the point where it would be temporarily unusable as a transport route.

That said, if Vic adds the ability to "destroy" roads in this manner, it would make sense to add a "repair road" option as well, which would be quicker and cheaper than building a whole new road.
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