The logistic System is a gigantic mess

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Dampfnudel
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The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by Dampfnudel »

The logistic system is a gigantic mess.
The "concept" of sending logistic points spreading equally in every direction is terrific.

In The game, the player is supposed to manually direct the logistical points via traffic signs.
This means that every turn I need to check my gigantic empire for changes in logistical needs and then adjust all the traffic signs accordingly.

Every turn troops move and assets are constructed, changing the required logistic points dramatically.
Every mine opens up a new road, causing another traffic sign. Aver asset upgrade requires a traffic sign change.

So I either have to massively over construct logistical capacity or I have to fiddle down with hundreds of traffic signs and their percentages to get the logistic where it is needed.

Logistical Points need to be spread demand-driven.
The only reason for traffic signs should be to priotize supply if not enough capacity is there.
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KingHalford
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by KingHalford »

You shouldn't need to micromanage things to this extent, if this is the case, BUILD MORE TRUCK STATIONS (this is gonna become my catchphrase)
Ben "BATTLEMODE"
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Kamelpov
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by Kamelpov »

If you don't want to think build supply truck and max size everytime and put them at 8 hex from each other and call it a day.
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devoncop
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by devoncop »

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

You shouldn't need to micromanage things to this extent, if this is the case, BUILD MORE TRUCK STATIONS (this is gonna become my catchphrase)


1000 times this .....truck stations are you friend !
"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"
Kamelpov
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by Kamelpov »

It's exactly what most companies IRL does spam truck. You are bad with logistics just buy more truck. Then congestion is another problem but not in that game road has no truck limit.
Nemo84
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by Nemo84 »

But that doesn't solve the actual problem.

For example a city has two roads connected. One is a small dirt road leading to a lvl 1 farm. The other is the main highway connecting this city to the empire. No matter how many truck stations I build, half of that logistical capacity will be wasted on the tiny little farm.

And the only way to counter that is fiddling with traffic signs, whileevery split in the road makes the problem more complex. It has no gameplay benefit whatsoever, it does not force me to make meaningful decisions, it's just busywork that makes me feel less like a ruler and more like one of his junior clerqks. micromanagement
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KingHalford
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by KingHalford »

I just played a game through from start to finish (115 turns) and only use the traffic signs a couple of times, near the start of the game. You likely won't touch them after a few turns aside from occasionally redirecting supply out to some long distant desert explorer.

If you're having to micromanage them turn by turn, you're not playing it right.
Ben "BATTLEMODE"
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Dampfnudel
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by Dampfnudel »

Go make a medium medusa planet run on extreme difficulty. And then tell me traffic sign micromanagement is not an issue.
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KingHalford
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by KingHalford »

I've not played Extreme, Regular is difficult enough for me. But now I understand your problem.

I understand the issue you're discussing and I also dislike any game design that encourages the player to micromanage every turn. However, since the very earliest 4X games and early game AI, the only way that a computer player can possibly keep up with a human is by giving it certain advantages, and the way to challenge the player in return is to give the AI more of those advantages. Consequently, the highest difficulty settings on these games usually required the player to either take advantage of exploits or to constantly micromanage their empire in order to get the best performance possible in order to win. If you watch someone like Sulla playing Master of Orion, you'll see exactly what I'm talking about, or the best Civilization players.

What I'm trying to say is this: if you're going to play on the very highest difficulty settings against an AI with massive bonuses, you're going to have to use everything you have, including Traffic Lights and everything else.

But that doesn't mean the game is badly designed, because most people are going to be playing it at a more reasonable difficulty and no game is ever balanced at those highest most extreme difficulty settings.
Ben "BATTLEMODE"
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Saros
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by Saros »

Some more fidelity with traffic lights might be useful.

If you could designate a road that's only being used for supplying an asset traffic signal as "LIS supply only" so it checks every turn only allows enough LP to folow through as is needed by whatever assets it supplies it would save having to readjust them continuously when you swap about your logistics network.
Nemo84
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by Nemo84 »

Just because you haven't needed it doesn't mean it's not an issue for others. "You're playing it wrong" is the lamest excuse for a poor design decision possible.

I'm in my first beginner-difficulty game and without constant tweaking of these traffic signs my empire simply grinds to a halt. Especially with the AI's road spaghetti.

There is absolutely no reason why a lvl 1 farm should draw 5000 trucks from the resource pool while an entire army 10 hexes over is running out of supplies.

I very much support a setting that just draws the minimal logistics points needed by the connected assets.
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springel
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by springel »

The logistic system is a true gem.

When you have 'too many' roads, just shut the superfluous ones down with traffic lights.

Put like a 95% block on roads that just service a single asset.

If that is too much for you, play another game.
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budd
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by budd »

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

Just because you haven't needed it doesn't mean it's not an issue for others. "You're playing it wrong" is the lamest excuse for a poor design decision possible.

I'm in my first beginner-difficulty game and without constant tweaking of these traffic signs my empire simply grinds to a halt. Especially with the AI's road spaghetti.

There is absolutely no reason why a lvl 1 farm should draw 5000 trucks from the resource pool while an entire army 10 hexes over is running out of supplies.

I very much support a setting that just draws the minimal logistics points needed by the connected assets.
He has a good point.

But OP calling the logistic system a giant mess is a bit dramatic.
Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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budd
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by budd »

ORIGINAL: springel

The logistic system is a true gem.

When you have 'too many' roads, just shut the superfluous ones down with traffic lights.

Put like a 95% block on roads that just service a single asset.

If that is too much for you, play another game.
Wait...wait... You can do that, think I'm about to learn something
Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.
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budd
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by budd »

Duh, I get it, disregard above
Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.
AttuWatcher
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by AttuWatcher »

I think a demand based system is more elegant in the end.

Does anyone have an actual good argument against it?

However, I agree with Ben, if you want to play this game in a "min/max" style, or with expert difficulty, complaining about micro is kind of ridiculous. Doesn't matter if it's logistics or any other part of the game.

I also don't think the current system is that bad, but if it were to be rebuilt from the ground up...demand based just seems objectively better. I'm all ears for any arguments against it, or defense of the current system vs. demand based.
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Kriegsspieler
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by Kriegsspieler »

In my opinion, there are two issues here that could be discussed and critiqued separately -- the complexity of the system and its transparency. I don't mind that it's complex, but I sure wish that it were a bit more transparent. The map overlays, for example, aren't quite informative enough to make out how I should be reading and responding to them.

Still, really, is any of this more difficult than your average Grigsby game? I think not! [:D]
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willgamer
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by willgamer »

I like the logistics system, complicated though it certainly is...

Resources require a static LIS; troops highly variable.

So how about a check box in the traffic controller that indicates to ignore the percentages and instead give a fixed amount based upon the static load at the far end.

This creates its own problems, of course, if you bring dynamic loads (i.e. troops) into the service area. However, if used properly in rear areas, it would greatly reduce the fiddling around, especially when the static resource is upgraded.

[8D]
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misterblort
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by misterblort »

I don't agree that is a complete mess. However, I do agree that a demand system makes more sense overall.
You are a supreme leader and tedious things like this should be handled by your advisors and staff..
Supply and demand just makes the most sense. If I got 10k supply and I need 10k in total all supplies should be dealt with. If I only have 9k supplies, that's were the system comes in handy to prioritize where you need them the most.
It only makes sense when u have less than you need, when you are over your needed supplies you shouldn't have to manually divert it to where it is needed. You've got a truck dispatch for that..
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KingHalford
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Post by KingHalford »

I'm all for a demand based system if it will actually fix this "problem" (which I'm not at all convinced is a problem at all) but the CPU cost of that might be way too much for this game. The AI turn times are already very large and if the game has to calculate demand from every single point on a logistics route I expect you're going to see the whole game grind to a halt.

I'm reckon the existing system will be calculated for each regime with an algorithm that looks at every point and sends it out more or less equally that way. Now consider that each point has to not only have an algorithm run to check but also some kind of decision making process too.

When you're doing this for every hex in in 60+ AI players turns as well as the human player, I think you're looking at a hell of a lot of CPU cost.
Ben "BATTLEMODE"
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