SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22

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50caliberGhost
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RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22

Post by 50caliberGhost »

Seaqueen is right about confronting sa21 with far more aircraft types than stealth. ea18g is necessary. maldj from any platform is very useful too i see that now. A global hawk can get a weapons grade track on sa21 by observing the missile site defend against maldj. Then the f22's or f35's can fire from extreme range, again with ea18g close jamming.

I could only guess that an f22 could get picked up at the 100nm+ ranges mikeCK mentioned by having radar on and no jamming in the area, though you said it was off.
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SeaQueen
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RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22

Post by SeaQueen »

ORIGINAL: 50caliberGhost
Seaqueen is right about confronting sa21 with far more aircraft types than stealth. ea18g is necessary. maldj from any platform is very useful too i see that now. A global hawk can get a weapons grade track on sa21 by observing the missile site defend against maldj. Then the f22's or f35's can fire from extreme range, again with ea18g close jamming.

I smack 'em all the time with F-35s w/SDB. Bonus points if you can do it with GBU-12.

Also, think in terms of combinations of weapons. Maybe the solution isn't just one thing? Maybe you could do it with shots of GBU-54 and AARGM timed to arrive simultaneously, for example, just to name one option. The God of War rewards creativity. Play with it. Different speeds, different flight profiles, different altitudes...

RJs are great for locating SAM sites. Maybe fighters + JASSM/CALCM is an option?

As I mentioned before, geometry matters. Timing matters. There's always saturation when style fails (i.e. How many have I got versus how many have you got?).

I like to think of Predators as a decoy system, but people frown on that... just sayin'

LargeDiameterBomb
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RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22

Post by LargeDiameterBomb »

I don't think it's a coincidence that the AARGM-ER is just starting to be integrated and procured for US assets, and I think that the emergence of very long range SAMs such as the SA-21 and radar complexes (Not used here in the Russian sense of the word) such as the Nebo-M with it's VHF-Band (A-/B-Band) and UHF-/L-Band (C-/D-Band) and S-Band (E-/F-Band) AESA radars is not a coincidence either.

I have no doubt that
using the VHF radar, which is able to detect and track the target from very long range (Since fighter-sized aircraft cannot be designed as VLO with such a huge wavelength), although it's track is very non-precise,
and then using info from that radar to control the emissions of the L-Band AESA which then focus a lot of it's radiated energy by digital beam-steering into that "box of uncertainty" where the radar operator knows the stealthy aircraft is (I might be mistaken but I have gotten the impresion that the L-Band version can develop a weapons quality track) and to an extent also using the Nebo-M S-Band AESA in the same way.

Nebo-M might be crap, I am pretty sure the Russians are overhyping it's capabilities, but there is little doubt the principle is sound, and I would guess that the Chinese will be able to make a much better version of a system comparable to the Nebo-M in concept in 2-5 years.

It seems pretty obvious that this is a sound concept, using different radars transmitting in different spectrums working together and using each spectrum's strengths to complement each other and with ever better computer hardware and more available processing power and the emergence of different AI-techniques that will give unparalleled radar processing capability and a whole new level of sensor fusion accuracy (It's only a question of time before the Chinese military-industrial complex master very advanced sensor fusion - but we in the west can probably keep up at least for the next decade but a lot of radars will have to be replaced).
I suspect the era of "stealth rules the battlespace" is over.

Most probably we will now no longer see any more focus on making aircraft with smaller and smaller radar-cross sections, ie 6th gen aircraft will not have smaller effective RCSs than 5th gen aircraft, unless a revolution in materials science that gives a couple of orders of better absorbtion of radar signals over a much, much wider electromagnetic spectrum is right around the corner (Which seems very unprobable).
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goldfinger35
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RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22

Post by goldfinger35 »

My brief testing:
Sa-2, Hawk: Cannot get a lock on F-22/35 even at 10nm (no jamming)
Sa-5: detects F-35 at 33nm and fires at 26nm, ECM F-35 has no effect
Sa-6: detects F-35 at 4nm
Sa-10a (S-300) detects F-35 at 20nm and fires at 14nm, if F-35 uses ECM, SAM cannot fire
Sa-20a (S-300) detects F-35 at 20nm and fires at 14nm, if F-35 uses ECM, SAM cannot fire
Sa-20b (S-300) detects F-35 at 35nm and fires at 14nm, if F-35 uses ECM, SAM cannot fire

50caliberGhost
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RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22

Post by 50caliberGhost »

Largediameterbomb: "I suspect the era of "stealth rules the battlespace" is over."

That is why i find cooperative engagement networking so important. An f35 getting a weapons lock on its own to some missile sites is dicey, but have the best surface search radars do it from a standoff distance and hand it off to an f35 package and they can fire from max distance without losses. repeatedly. And i found the late 2010s sensors of global hawk even safer than older 2000s sensors rivet joint. stealthier too. p8 poseidon has super modern sensors too but not as stealthy to avoid detection. I tested a lot of elint platforms.

Granted jassm/aargm works well once you have weapons lock but more expensive than sdb's and f22's can get away safe at max launch distance.
LargeDiameterBomb
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RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22

Post by LargeDiameterBomb »

I wholeheartedly agree with you. CEC is one of the most revolutionary and promising technologies that has been introduced for a very long time.

I see four relatively new important trends that becomes more powerful as time passes intersecting,
1) Increased computer power and the ability to store ever larger volumes of digital data allowing more and more autonomous vehicles, drones, drone-missiles and everything in between of all sizes getting "smarter" for the first time in history,
2) Miniturization driven by increased computing power per watt, higher output sensors per unit of volume and smaller electronics with greater precision (Which means less weight to carry and more range per fuel unit)
3) Ever faster and more robust communications between all decision-making subjects, whether machine or human
4) More precise targeting allowing smaller warheads to create more costly or deadly effects


With the above mentioned thing in mind and what you say I guess we will eventually see things along the lines of swarms of 120 very small LO electric drones with maybe 1/4 to 1/2 lbs warheads but excellent targeting capabilities being released from two low-flying F-35 forty miles from a S-400 site which has been mapped by a Global Hawk with SAR with the SAR image converted in very near real-time to a 3D-photorealistic environment which the drones use for navigation and targeting with their IR and visual light sensors, flying at maybe 40 kn one meter above ground level until they near the SA-21 site where they will spread out and attack very specific points on the vehicles to achieve mission kills, all the while communicating with each other and noting targets taken out - small shaped charges destroying missile canisters and the missiles inside them, blast-frag charges impacting radars and EO-sensors, EFP charges impacting vehicle engines, blast-frag charges impacting shelters and higher commanders by recognizing their rank insignia. That sounds like science fiction but I guess 10-15 years.

The intermediate stage is as you say something like swarms of slightly larger drone-missiles (Think a swarm of 64 short 2" inch mid-subsonic missiles with a micro-turbojet, an relatively low resolution non-cooled IR sensor and a 1 lbs HEDP warhead) released from only two F-35s in an area mapped by a Global Hawk and the F-35 and Global Hawk and drones communicating constantly (Drones predominantly communicating with other drones) for optimal targeting based on sensors on the Global Hawk or F-35s and targets already destroyed. I guess 5-7 years.

On the other hand we will eventually see the introduction of VVSHORAD micro-SAMs with 2-4 km range with around 250 to a battery that are optimized for intercepting these drone-missiles most probably using radar-based ACLOS for cost effectiveness and a very clutter- and multipath-resistant tracking-radar mounted on a high mast.

And on it goes.

However, I think AI will eventually decide the empire of the future. Not in the singularity kind of way - that's a non-important fantasy, but that the first nation to create a superintelligent AI will forever rule the world since it will make such fast progress in research and be able to stop aany other countries from achieving a Super Intelligent AI unless a country isolates it's internet pre-emptively. Right now my bets are on China even though I live in the west.

BTW, I think we will see a greater amount of weapons that are classified and whose specifications or even existence will not be made available to the public in the next decades. The AIM-260 JATM is probably only the start of that (Yes, I know, highly unorthodox systems have always been classified and their existence denied - but this I think will include systems used by regular 5th/6th gen fighters or armor, mechanized infantry and light infantry - we will see a shift to more regular weapons having the same restrictions as things that used to come from the Skunk Works.


PS. The way to destroy a SA-21 battalion is by using SDBs, lots of SDBs as distractions.
Use as many SDBs as SA-21 missiles that are available. Add another 16 SDBs for destruction of the battery or 4x JSOW A:s that are released last.
If you suspect there are Pantsir point-defense units on hand to defend the SA-21 battery, add 8x HARMs and/or 8x JSOW-As, if you have aircraft that can carry four of them each, otherwise add 32 SDBs or about 12 Tomahwks or JASSMs if available, set to arrive approx one minute after impact of other weapons to make use of their large warheads.

Always use standoff jamming support of the latest type you got access to and keep all aircraft on a straight line just in front of jamming aircraft with all aircraft pointed straight towards the SA-21 battalion until impact of weapons.

Coordinate weapons for presumed first enemy detection and destruction of SDBs and HARMs, then depending on terrain JSOW A:s or Tomahawks and JASSMs - Having Tomahawks and JASSMS impact last only if you can use terrain masking so they have a large chance of reaching their target without being destroyed - otherwise plan for impact of JSOW A:s last.
This works, but you need a hell of a lot of firepower to destroy a SA-21 battery.
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