Is there any interest in including modernized Soviet equipment in the DB3000?

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LargeDiameterBomb
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Is there any interest in including modernized Soviet equipment in the DB3000?

Post by LargeDiameterBomb »

As many people probably know, there has grown up a whole sub-part of the global defense industry which specializes in modernizing old Soviet equipment.

Would the developers of CMO be open to including these modernized units in the DB3000, either as country-specific units where such data exists, or as generic or hypothetical units where no data exists on if a modernization has been implemented by any country?


For instance we have the very old P-18 Spoon Rest D radar for which numerous modernization pacakages seem to exist.

Here we have an offer from (What I assume are a Ukraiean firm: Ukroboronservice) with quite a lot of details on what parts have been upgraded and what the specifications of the new modernized version of the redar has available:

https://en.uos.ua/modernizatsiya/-vhf-s ... -18-upgrad


Another offer that is also quite detailed (But not as explicit as the above offer - and I don't presume to understand all of what it means in real world terms that certain parts have been upgraded) in what it offers is Hungarian Arzenal's P-18 modernization offer:

http://www.hmarzenal.hu/eng/defense-ind ... radar.html


Other units that seem to be very popular units for modernization are the ZSU-23-4 Shilka, 2K12 Kub/SA-6 Gainful, S-125 Pechora/SA-3 Goa, S-75/SA-2 Guideline and some other older radars.


So, my first question is, would the developers be open to adding this kind of equipment to the DB3000?

I think that including at least one generic modification of each of these units would make the game more interesting and realistic.


Question 2: Are the developers open in principle to adding such units only if suitably detailed data can be found for versions of different modernization packages (This alternative would mean a specific unit and it's sensors, mounts and weapons would be added for an identified specific modernization package which has public details available at least as detailed as the above one for the Spoon Rest D from Ukroboronservice - although I personally would only wish to see one or two or at the absolute most three (In very specific cases where it can be clearly motivated) modernized versions of units such as those mentioned above included in the game - with a sensor name of for instance Spoon Rest D (P-18) (Ukrainean Modernized Version) and a unit name of Radar (Spoon Rest D - Ukrainean Modernized Version [P-18])

Question 3: Are the developers open in principle to adding generic modernized versions of units such as those mentioned above even if not as detailed data as one would wish can't be found about working frequencies, PRF, peak power, Signal to Noise ratio and so on for a specific radar and then instead just keep the data from the old unit and just raise the tech level from for instance Late 1960s to Late 1970s, adding for instance the MTI ticker if applicable for an old radar or adding modern electrooptics (IR Camera, TV Camera and LRF), removing the radar and making the targeting times much lower for a Shilka - sensors or mounts which would then have names such as Spoon Rest D (P-18) (Generic Modernization) and 23mm ZSU-23-4 (Generic Modernization) with unit names such as
AAA Plt/2 (23mm ZSU-23-4 Modernized Shilka x 2).


If there's no interest in including such units because of the extra work it means or perhaps more importantly, the confusion it would cause newcomers to the game, I completely understand.


Thanks in advance for the great work you do!


EDIT: This post was not meant only for the developers though I realize it might seem like that. I would gladly hear comments and thoughts from the community on this idea: if there is any interest in including these types of units, how to do it, if you find it unneccssary and so on, basically any comments are appreciated.


To put things in perspective and to explain why additions of a couple of these units would make things more interesting it might be of value to know that there are so many companies offering upgrades for the most commonly exported Soviet systems that the options are seemingly unlimited and states ranging from Syria and Iran to Ukraine to Hungary and most probably tens of other states, including several NATO members, have upgraded some or a lot of their old Soviet systems (which includes any type of land system relevant to CMO).

To take an example that is quite easy to understand why modifications are cost effective and can have a big effect:
The Shilka, which is equipped with four 23x152 mm autocannons with a total rate of fire of 3400 rounds per minute, is still in use in a lot of countries, was originally considered a very effective SPAAG system and is still considered a dangerous threat for any low-flying aircraft.

There has been very little revolutionary development of AAA cannons since when the Shilka was introduced: A reasonable assessment is that the only revolutionary development in the area of AAA cannons have been the introduction of "intelligent" proximity fuzes (for HE/PFHE projectiles) with much better signal processing and several different fuzing modes that combined with the introduction of fuze programmers and muzzle velocity meters have made some AAA weapons more deadly and versatile. But that only goes for what is commonly considered larger medium caliber weapons, approximately 35 mm and larger.

3400 rounds a minute of 23 mm projectiles fired from a reasonably accurate weapon is still as dangerous today as it was in the 60s to any low-flying aircraft within a mile (Meaning very dangerous) and the advancements since that time have primarily been made in the area of sensors, especially electrooptics, and in the area of combat management systems by way of automation of many functions of the target acquisition, aiming and firing process thanks to the introduction of microprocessors.

If a Shilka is upgraded with a modern faster combat management system and modern operating consoles, sensors consisting of a thermal imager, a day television or LLTV camera and a laser range-finder (Either removing the radar and adding a simple wire/radio datalink to receive target information from a stand-alone radar/IADS or replacing the radar with a more modern one) and possibly upgrading the turret drive to an electric system and introducing a stabilized and/or more precise gun laying system, one has a very potent and modern triple AAA system with high combat value for quite a reasonable prize. Some upgrade packages have also included integration of MANPADS missiles to the Shilka SPAAG.

A reaction time of let's say 6 to 8 seconds instead of 10 seconds, a 10 % higher hit probability and the ability to function in an ECM environment at night would make a reasonably big difference in-game.

To name just one instance where this would increase realism consider a scenario set during the late Syrian civil war including a limited open war (Instead of the proxy war that was) between the US and the Syrian armed forces, the latter which has, according to what I have read, most probably upgraded a lot of their older Soviet equipment, but the possible scenarios where modernized versions of common Soviet systems could be used to heighten realism are literally endless.
LetMePickThat
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RE: Is there any interest in including modernized Soviet equipment in the DB3000?

Post by LetMePickThat »

This would require a lot of information that you are unlikely to find.
Unless you get your hands on precise documentation, you're bound to have to rely on assumptions, which cannot be used when implementing new units.

TLDR: why not, but info will be needed.
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kevinkins
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RE: Is there any interest in including modernized Soviet equipment in the DB3000?

Post by kevinkins »

Why does my hair hurt reading the OP? [:D]



“The study of history lies at the foundation of all sound military conclusions and practice.”
― Alfred Thayer Mahan

LargeDiameterBomb
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RE: Is there any interest in including modernized Soviet equipment in the DB3000?

Post by LargeDiameterBomb »

I am reasonable sure enough info can be found to at least create units with generic modernization packages by piecing together information. There is a lot of information available if one looks long enough.

A lot of the units in game obviously involve a lot of assumptions and a lot of the database information make no sense, for instance check out if you can find any coherent assumptions underlying which naval weapon station and medium caliber naval gun ammunition ("weapons" in game) has a PoH of 2, 4 or 8 % against air targets (Although the numbers keep getting more coherent as database updates go by). There are countless other similar examples.

Of course, adding more units with faulty numbers makes nothing better, but I am fairly sure enough information can be found to make units with at least as coherent underlying assumptions as many of the other units and sensor now featured in the game but it will take a long time.
Since not many people seem to care it doesn't seem to be worth spending maybe 20 hours to gather the required information and coming up with reasonable suggestions.

It's not like this is the most important thing in the game anyway, it would only be a small, small part of the decade-long process of making the game a little bit more realistic one step at a time.
thewood1
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RE: Is there any interest in including modernized Soviet equipment in the DB3000?

Post by thewood1 »

"It's not like this is the most important thing in the game anyway"

If we go by word count, it just might be.
You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes
LargeDiameterBomb
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RE: Is there any interest in including modernized Soviet equipment in the DB3000?

Post by LargeDiameterBomb »

thewood1,

Lying in bed in self-quarantine with a very mild case of COVID-19 seeing the rise of China in real-time and noticing a strong smell from the fall of the American liberal empire while having the time to write long, detailed posts aimed at both experts and laymen alike is pretty nice [:)]

I always write pretty long posts compared to most people to be able to cover most aspects of any issue. But think what you want, it's not like your little in-group of cool guys here at matrixforum's opinion of me is of any major concern to me.

Last, if you cannot quickly skim two A4s worth of text and by the first third know if it interests you I can only express my sympathy with you for inheriting such a sub-standard set of alleles related to general intelligence from your parents.
thewood1
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RE: Is there any interest in including modernized Soviet equipment in the DB3000?

Post by thewood1 »

Chill out a little.
You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes
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kevinkins
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RE: Is there any interest in including modernized Soviet equipment in the DB3000?

Post by kevinkins »

LargeDiameterBomb,

I was just teasing you. You are well meaning. But if you are going get attention on the forum, your posts have to be more focused. That is the way a player's observations get addressed. We prefer posts to be like an engineering proposal rather than Nathaniel Hawthorne novel. Don't get me wrong, we are a friendly group that can appreciate humor, sports and things outside CMO. Maybe take one of your main ideas over to the feature request thread.
We all look in on that thread all the time.

Kevin
“The study of history lies at the foundation of all sound military conclusions and practice.”
― Alfred Thayer Mahan

LargeDiameterBomb
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RE: Is there any interest in including modernized Soviet equipment in the DB3000?

Post by LargeDiameterBomb »

kevinkins,

Yes, I realized that you were only teasing and that was why I didn't reply to you in the way I did to thewood1. As you say, I am well-meaning and I don't make a big deal out of a little bantz as long as it's not straight out insults saying I am being dishonest or otherwise impugning my motives from people I have no relation to.

And I realized that the post became unnecessarily long, especially with the edit but didn't care about rewriting the whole post since I was having a rising fever then, so your point is well taken.

G'day!
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kevinkins
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RE: Is there any interest in including modernized Soviet equipment in the DB3000?

Post by kevinkins »

Trust you are feeling better. It's often hard to figure out where to post an idea and/or news story that may support that new idea. The War Room might be the best place when ideas like your's surface. I still have not figured out the best place. Sometimes it's just not a feature request until the idea get passed around by like minded friends.

Kevin
“The study of history lies at the foundation of all sound military conclusions and practice.”
― Alfred Thayer Mahan

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ultradave
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RE: Is there any interest in including modernized Soviet equipment in the DB3000?

Post by ultradave »

Going back to the general idea of being able to find the information (or some of it, or enough assumptions), the best way to get your (or anyone's) favorite new platform or weapon in the database is to start a thread in the database request for DB3000 (In this case). You can take a look there at previous requests and see what is required.

The developers will be much more likely to include something if you list it very specifically, one item at time, and include right with that request, as many open source links to good information as you can find.

They are not very likely to go do all that searching themselves, without a starting point. It's not that they're mean. But there are only a few people and they are quite busy, so the more help you can provide them, the more likely it is you will get what you ask.
----------------
Dave A.
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep he checks his closet for paratroopers"
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