Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

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aspqrz02
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by aspqrz02 »

I didn't know about the Nickel mines in Petsamo ... and, it seems, neither did the League of Nations!

I used the LoN statistical Yearbook for 1939 for the placement of natural resources and, for Nickel mining in Europe it gives figures of Greece (1000 metric tons), Norway (1200 metric tons), Germany (272 metric tons) and the USSR (2000 metric tons) for 1938.

There is NO mention of Finnish production. NONE.

Which is strange, as I can find the existence of the Petsamo Mine mentioned as a possible cause of the Russo-Finnish war in several places on the 'Net.

However, NONE of those places provide ANY figures on output. And they indicate that the mining was only begun some time AFTER 1935 ... so I am wondering whether, despite all the claims as to the importance of the Mine whether it was actually in significant production during the war?

Do you have actual figures?

Does ANYONE have actual figures?

I CAN put in a Exotic Metals resource there IF it seems that the output was significant ... but without any figures I cannot make a decision at this point.

Phil McGregor
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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PanzerMike
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by PanzerMike »

Nickel matte produced between July 1941 and September 1944: 17,000 tonnes. In addition 114,000 tonnes of nickel ore were shipped South.

https://books.google.nl/books?id=fIMgDQ ... amo&f=true
aspqrz02
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by aspqrz02 »

Ah. Did a bit of further digging ... the figures you mention, however, are obviously ridiculous ... except that, in both cases, it seems, they are for raw ore and translate into about 5-7% of that weight of nickel metal which is more in line with what other bigger producers produced according to League Yearbook ... which is 800-1000 tons for, I think, 1940-41 and 7-10000 tons over the course of the rest of the war.

I will add a Rare Metals hex SW of Petsamo.

Phil McGregor
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Lascar
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by Lascar »

ORIGINAL: aspqrz02

I didn't know about the Nickel mines in Petsamo ... and, it seems, neither did the League of Nations!

I used the LoN statistical Yearbook for 1939 for the placement of natural resources and, for Nickel mining in Europe it gives figures of Greece (1000 metric tons), Norway (1200 metric tons), Germany (272 metric tons) and the USSR (2000 metric tons) for 1938.

There is NO mention of Finnish production. NONE.

Which is strange, as I can find the existence of the Petsamo Mine mentioned as a possible cause of the Russo-Finnish war in several places on the 'Net.

However, NONE of those places provide ANY figures on output. And they indicate that the mining was only begun some time AFTER 1935 ... so I am wondering whether, despite all the claims as to the importance of the Mine whether it was actually in significant production during the war?

Do you have actual figures?

Does ANYONE have actual figures?

I CAN put in a Exotic Metals resource there IF it seems that the output was significant ... but without any figures I cannot make a decision at this point.

Phil McGregor
Here are the German nickel stocks and consumption during the course of the war:

Year: 1939,1940,1941,1942,1943,1944
Supplies: 8500,13700,8800,5500,7600,10900
Consumption: 10100,11600,9200,8000,9400,9500
Stocks: 9200,11300,10900,10400,8600,7900

Apparently, around 80% of German nickel requirements for their war industry came from the Petsamo mine.

There was a lot of diplomatic wrangling between the Finns, Germans and the USSR before the invasion of the Soviet Union over the Petsamo nickel mine. It was a great concern for the Germans to assure their access to the nickel deposits at Petsamo. https://dc.etsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2290&context=etd
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PanzerMike
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by PanzerMike »

During the first part of war Germany mostly used the nickel they got from France to build tanks etc. But in 1943 the nickel of Petsamo covered some 73% of the German use and in 1944 even up to 87%.

Between 1940-42 Petsamo delivered 2,900 tons of PURE nickel ( counted as pure while most of it was sent to Germany to be purified ) and 43-44 12,900 tons ( also turned into pure nickel figures ).

All in all the need for PURE nickel in Germany was about 50,000 tons during WW2 of which Petsamo delivered some 13,000 tons, this much considered as covering one year´s need for all production.

http://ww2f.com/threads/petsamo-germans ... ckel.4144/
aspqrz02
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by aspqrz02 »

Thats the figures I saw ... so averaging ~950 tons pa for 1940-42 (I'm assuming most of this would have been toward the end of the period based on the 43-44 figures) and 6000 pa for 43-44. There's no way to model this, afaict ...

Unless ... the war starts in 1939 with NO Rare Metals outside Petsamo and the RM hex is added by script in late 1942 or early 43.

Since I am not certain exactly what 'Rare Metals' represent in the game, or how they are used in the game system, I am not even sure I *should* include them.

Phil McGregor
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Lascar
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by Lascar »

ORIGINAL: aspqrz02

Thats the figures I saw ... so averaging ~950 tons pa for 1940-42 (I'm assuming most of this would have been toward the end of the period based on the 43-44 figures) and 6000 pa for 43-44. There's no way to model this, afaict ...

Unless ... the war starts in 1939 with NO Rare Metals outside Petsamo and the RM hex is added by script in late 1942 or early 43.

Since I am not certain exactly what 'Rare Metals' represent in the game, or how they are used in the game system, I am not even sure I *should* include them.

Phil McGregor
The rare metals are strategic resources that add 1% to total production (page 24 of the manual). There is no need to assign a specific quantity to it like iron ore.
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Lascar
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by Lascar »

aspqrz02

Thats the figures I saw ... so averaging ~950 tons pa for 1940-42 (I'm assuming most of this would have been toward the end of the period based on the 43-44 figures) and 6000 pa for 43-44. There's no way to model this, afaict ...

Unless ... the war starts in 1939 with NO Rare Metals outside Petsamo and the RM hex is added by script in late 1942 or early 43.

Since I am not certain exactly what 'Rare Metals' represent in the game, or how they are used in the game system, I am not even sure I *should* include them.

Phil McGregor


Adding it would be consistent with the additional rare metal sites you have already added. Also, the existence of the Petsamo nickel mine was an important consideration in German strategic planning and operations in northern Finland. https://dc.etsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2290&context=etd
aspqrz02
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by aspqrz02 »

It's done, I will post the updated map 'real soon now' ... in the next couple of days

Phil
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Lascar
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by Lascar »

Sounds good, looking forward to eventually trying your excellent historical mod.

BTW, I notice a possible slight typo with one of the German units.
All of the German mech/armor corps have a 70 experience, except for the XVI mech which has 50.
Is this intended or a typo?
aspqrz02
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by aspqrz02 »

Yep, typo, will correct. Probably not the only one like that!

Phil McGregor
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Meteor2
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by Meteor2 »

When you have to look at special formations, OOB or locations the following link may help, too.

www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de




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Tanaka
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by Tanaka »

Looks interesting! If you make a folder with the same name as the mod you can use any modded art you want. Very cool and look forward to your progress!
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AlvaroSousa
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by AlvaroSousa »

Wait till he has to debug and balance it. He will lose his mind.......
Creator Kraken Studios
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PanzerMike
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by PanzerMike »

Well, let the man try. The editor is there for a reason [:)]. It is a brave effort.

I am also making a mod (besides the graphics). I am just not touching the units, just the map. No more, no less. And even then the changes are minor in nature (unless a revamp of the Benelux is considered major...). Not moving everything around or changing railroads drastically. Do not want to touch the scripts either. So, not very ambitious at all.

Maybe I will never publish it and just keep it my fun little project.
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AlvaroSousa
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by AlvaroSousa »

BTW I tested dumping a custom image into the directory and it works.

So maybe you are dumping the image into the 1939 Scenario and NOT your own scenario directory. Which is where you have to put the modded images for the editor to work.

So it is working in the editor.
Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3
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PanzerMike
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by PanzerMike »

So you say, but not on my end :-(
aspqrz02
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by aspqrz02 »

Quite possible re the debugging.

Balance is a more vexed issue ... the physical, economic and resource factors place constraints on all sides, I hope, so 'Victory' will relate to how long the Axis lasts ...

8 MAY 45 = Historical End

Before that date: Allied Victory
After that date: Axis Victory

'Balance' will be, I think, in hand tailoring the cost of units, their actual strength, and whether they are available at all rather than having them much the same for all sides.

So, for example, if the Germans want to build Strategic Bombers, given their historical economic, production and technological limitations, they will take FAR longer to build and cost FAR more than Allied ones ... and probably have different range and attack factors.

Since I am still working on the final book of my Kickstarter I am, as I said, doing this in my copious free time ... ROTFL.

Phil McGregor
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Rand6897
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by Rand6897 »



aspqrz02,

I downloaded your mod and I am about to go into April, 1940. I'm playing hotseat to get a feel for the game, only played a couple turns with the published game (I like more units). First time through I was able to take out Poland on the first turn. I used the infantry to open up holes then attacked Warsaw with Mechanized and Pz. I started over with a loose rule that units reasonably burn their operational points in a more uniform fashion. Infantry units could use a couple points but combat motorized units would then have to burn an proportionate number of their operational points (similar to OTOW time stamp). Warsaw fell on turn two.

I was going to go after Denmark in the fall but weather was wet or cold every turn since the start of October, let Sitzkrieg commence. The French and Brits, have fleshed out their units while the German units absorbed replacements, all immediately put some additional assets into production prior to focusing on existing units. The Soviets are just bringing at start units to full strength. Same for Italy but not making much progress due to oil deprivation (I guess).

When I play hotseat like I don't spend much time carefully analyzing unit placement or production needs, this allows for ample mistakes in allocation of resources. I also try to consider historical conditions.

The Germans are waiting on the Danish boarder and northern ports waiting for the weather to clear so they can secure their northern flank.

Thanks for your efforts with this mod.
Rand6897
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RE: Historical Map & ORBAT Mod

Post by Rand6897 »


The weather cleared on the first turn of May, 1940. The Germans had no difficulty taking Denmark but struggled to take The Netherlands and Belgium. The next two turns turned into a slug fest going against the entrenched French units. I set the French on 'Hold' and it would take five rounds of combat to dislodge a unit. I tried a couple different strategies but the Germans were lucky to take two hexes a turn, granted I had three Luftwaffe units staged to cover the invasion of Norway.

Eventually France would fall but having all the additional units wasn't going to help the Germans because of the single unit stacking limit. I still like your mod but I am making some changes. I increased the build time, especially for ground units. Large corps have been increased to 300, small corps 240 days, divisions are at 180 (I believe) except for marines (300). Calvary and Soviet units are 30 days faster. I also reduced ZoC to one additional movement point.







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