Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

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Hubert Cater
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by Hubert Cater »

Thanks for the info, much appreciated, and we suspect that a new game under v1.03 will be a bit different, please let us know [:)].
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Hubert Cater
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by Hubert Cater »

I just wanted to add and to quickly reiterate what I just posted in another thread...

We have made a number of changes to v1.03 that we sincerely do think will help address these imbalance concerns... we now just hope players will try it, as we are listening and making changes to improve things as requested [:)]

Hubert
HamburgerMeat
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by HamburgerMeat »

I think the problem is partially due to the fact that it is easier to play the axis at a decent level than the allies. Simply double research chit advanced tanks, ground attack weapons, S&I, and go to town. As long as you're basically on schedule for barbaossa, and youve been steadily advancing in China, you're in good shape to win.

As the allies, you really cant afford to make big mistakes for the first three years. You have to balance the use of rivers and terrain vs maintaining a solid line at crucial points. You have to research the "right" techs. And when the US comes up to bat, you have to strike so hard that the germans/japanese have no choice but to turn around.

Knowing how to use the allied toolkit is much harder. But they do have the tools
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Judgementday
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by Judgementday »

Update on 1.3 and it's impacts on balance:

Hamburger and I started the a 1.3, Hamburger is Axis and I Allies, as I enjoy the Allies in all WWII games and the challenges they offer.

However, although we are still early in the war and I have to give Hamburger credit for possibly (most likely) being the best Axis player I have had the opportunity to play against.

• Poland falls in turn one (amazing, he is the first Axis I have seen pull off this feat, well done), 09/1940,
• Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg and Denmark all out by 12/1940
• Italy joins Axis 01/1940
• Germany installs Vichy 03/01/1940
• China is down two armies & two core, their air crippled and too expensive to repair, several core are damaged. The entire south is taken and there is a big push on Sian. Japan is one hex from Kweichow, Sian, Yanku, Paotow. But I do hold Inchang (for now). Communist China just joined.

Although, to his credit, HamburgerMeat is about a month ahead of most Axis players I have encountered, a good Axis player (and I have played many) will repeat these same results time and time again. A moderate Axis players wont be far behind, and USSR cant not hold against the level 3/4 tanks/halftracks and +2/3 ground strike air that they have to look forward to. They will lose 3/4 units a turn, which is a loss rate they can not survive. The only other option would be to defend at Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad from the start and give up HUGH early gains, in a hope of holding till the US and Britain can apply enough pressure to relieve them in possibly 43.

As the playing community becomes more skilled, it becomes more and more apparent that the Allies are doomed, unless the Axis make several serious mistakes or are to timid, as they do need to be bold, just not reckless.

I'm sure HamburgerMeat can put up a good Allied game, but enough to overcome the imbalance the game currently offers against a skilled Axis, would be difficult to do.

I would rate myself a fair player, and as such, the game is unplayable as Allies as it is currently offered.

Again, I LOVE the game, I have played probably 20+, with 1/2 games ongoing since its' launch.

But it is in desperate need of adjustments. In my humble opinion.

1.3 was a step in the right direction, but all aspects of the Axis progression are easily 1-2 months ahead of historical.

And the scary part of this whole conversation is that thread is a great training instruction for the other Axis players on how to beat the Allies. So I only have to look forward to even better Axis opponents in the future.




ThunderLizard11
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by ThunderLizard11 »

ORIGINAL: HamburgerMeat

I think the problem is partially due to the fact that it is easier to play the axis at a decent level than the allies. Simply double research chit advanced tanks, ground attack weapons, S&I, and go to town. As long as you're basically on schedule for barbaossa, and youve been steadily advancing in China, you're in good shape to win.

As the allies, you really cant afford to make big mistakes for the first three years. You have to balance the use of rivers and terrain vs maintaining a solid line at crucial points. You have to research the "right" techs. And when the US comes up to bat, you have to strike so hard that the germans/japanese have no choice but to turn around.

Knowing how to use the allied toolkit is much harder. But they do have the tools

What's your strategy for Allies?
pjg100
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by pjg100 »

I do not agree with the critique that the game is drastically unbalanced in favor of the Axis. I think we should give it some time under 1.03.
HamburgerMeat
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by HamburgerMeat »

I'll post something in a few days or so. I'm primarily an axis player, so I'm sure there are better Allied players than me out there who have better ideas.

I'm also not sure about how effective the new anti-tank will be. I suspect that, even with the buffs, it's better to use your money on advanced tanks (since anti tank can only attack one), but if you're not one for counter-punching, then it might be worth going down that route.
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Hubert Cater
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by Hubert Cater »

I'm sure HamburgerMeat can put up a good Allied game, but enough to overcome the imbalance the game currently offers against a skilled Axis, would be difficult to do.

Thanks for the feedback Judgementday, much appreciated. It sounds like Hamburgermeat is a very good player, regardless of side, and it would indeed be interesting to see a mirrored game, where you play Axis to his Allies to see how that went. I suspect it will help us quite a bit in further painting a picture on game balance.

boudi
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by boudi »

Can we say that the soft building limits option favors Axis or not ?
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Judgementday
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by Judgementday »

I do not play games with soft build limits, it would lend itself to crazy strategies built around production pared with tech for 2/3 key units, Armor and Air, most likely, which are already probably too strong. The ability for Germany to get level 4 tanks by 42, with 5s on the way, is already a death sentence for USSR.

But, it is clearly the Axis that have the initial Technical advantage, soft building limits would probably amplify this, as they would almost certainly build even more armor and halftracks probably abandoning infantry all together.
HamburgerMeat
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by HamburgerMeat »

I would agree that it probably favors axis. But the thought of 10+ strategic bombers for the western allies makes me shudder as well.

If the axis fails to take advantage of soft build limits, then the allies will crush them.
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Hubert Cater
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by Hubert Cater »

On the topic of soft caps and the potential Allied advantage (especially with air and bombers), here is another perspective on the game pre v1.03 patch:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/957720/d ... 142631989/

As mentioned previously in the thread, it's not the first time the game has been suggested to us to be imbalanced, it's also been suggested that one side or the other (as in the Steam thread) has the overall edge, and after running a survey and listening to all feedback, we really are trying our best to address all concerns and find the right set of fixes that not only take into account those concerns but also all levels of game play. And of course to leave the game as reasonably open and as fun to play as possible without overcompensating (or hamstringing players) via changes.
boudi
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by boudi »

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

ORIGINAL: HamburgerMeat

I think the problem is partially due to the fact that it is easier to play the axis at a decent level than the allies. Simply double research chit advanced tanks, ground attack weapons, S&I, and go to town. As long as you're basically on schedule for barbaossa, and youve been steadily advancing in China, you're in good shape to win.

As the allies, you really cant afford to make big mistakes for the first three years. You have to balance the use of rivers and terrain vs maintaining a solid line at crucial points. You have to research the "right" techs. And when the US comes up to bat, you have to strike so hard that the germans/japanese have no choice but to turn around.

Knowing how to use the allied toolkit is much harder. But they do have the tools

What's your strategy for Allies?

I think that the problem is not how a good or very good player can hope to win with the Allies, the problem is how an average Allied player can have a chance against an average axis player. [;)]

But it was allready the past. Whe have to try the 1.03, give us its chance, i trust in Hubert.
HamburgerMeat
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by HamburgerMeat »

You might be right. Like I mentioned before, any big mistake (losing the BEF in France, getting swept away in Egypt without inflicting massive casualties on the Germans, losing ground too quickly in China) can be decisive. An average player will be more likely to make these mistakes.
taffjones
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by taffjones »

Hi Judgementday
You have stopped me in my tracks in our game.
Ok I am not the best player but I think I am a decent player.
If you play against Elite players (for either side) or players who read and learn the scripts of by heart, then they will always have an advantage.
But I think Hubert and Bill do their best to balance the game for players of all abilities and are always making improvements to game play from feedback from the players.

It will be interesting to see how the changes in 1.03 change the game. By the time we get to play a game under 1.03 you will properly have beaten me 2:1 with you as the Allies [:D]
Mithrilotter
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by Mithrilotter »

What if Germany was limited to one research point in Tanks and the Soviet Union began with one Level of Intelligence? This would slow Germany's Tank progression to a more reasonable level. One Level of Intelligence would slightly increase all Soviet research progression.
WayneBGood
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by WayneBGood »

I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. I have been playing 2 WAW games, one as Axis and other as the allies. My game as Axis chased off my opponent, simply because I was overwhelming the allies in Europe and Asia and it's was only March of 1940. I'm not really that good of a player yet as Axis it was pretty easy to take on the initiative and not get stopped. Now in my game as the Allies I have just been throttled by my opponent. The French literally collapsed in January-february, the British BEF I evacuated before they could become cannon fodder for the Axis. THe morale for the French drops incredibly fast for little or no reason once the germans crossover into France. Once the Maginot line is flanked it's over in France. And there certainly is not enough PPs to invest into a military that could hold off the germans for more than a couple of turns.
The Japanese are conquering China easily enough and I decide to try to declare war with the Russians against Japan in 1940. No go due to the Russians are still mobilizing, which in my mind makes no sense since the Russians did have combat with Japan in 1939 and also the Invasion of Finland. That to me is a very gamey kind of script and gives an advantage to the Axis powers. I just think the Axis is much to strong in the early game or the allies are just to weak.
I think another issue is Norway. The game gives Norway to the Axis but disregards the attempt by the British to stop the Axis invasion in 1939. This event should force out the German fleet from the Baltic to escort and facilitate the invasion forces on the West coast of Norway.
fireston
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by fireston »

Hey WayneBGood,

What happened with Poland ? Did it fall on turn 1?
WayneBGood
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by WayneBGood »

Hey WayneBGood,

What happened with Poland ? Did it fall on turn 1?

In the PBEM game as the Allies, Poland fell in turn 1. When I played the Axis in my previous game it fell on turn 1.
HamburgerMeat
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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced

Post by HamburgerMeat »

Bill mentioned in another thread that he's looking at rescripting it so that, even if Poland falls in turn 1, that the axis player still has to choose to follow to break the pact.
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