Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

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Fafnir
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by Fafnir »

The attack on the Marginot Line was also possible before applying any patch.
I noticed some player move around the units of Marginot so they are not fully entrenched when Germany can attack.
I also see no reason why Germany should not be able to break throug Marginot when using 3/4 of Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe against the low morale french forces.

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Taxman66
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by Taxman66 »

On allied turn 3 I disbanded the Polish bomber.

The city NW of Strasbourg (Metz?) is vulnerable as well as you'll see when I post pictures (hopefully later tonight). In a single turn Metz fell and Strasbourg was reduced from 10 to 5. I spent all of France's 2 turns of MPP (before the attack) on the Maginot forces with the exception of getting the fighter up to 10 str (though not yet upgraded to fighter tech 1). In hindsight I admit that I should've spent more at Metz and less on the other non city hexes, but I don't think it would've made too much of a difference.

An additional issue is that if you want to have the French HQ help, you have to rail it. If you don't it will be too close to the Stukas and still at 5 str. That's more MPP the French don't have to spare against this strategy.
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Taxman66
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by Taxman66 »

Fafnir,
I think its very debatable as to how realistic it might be historically.

Soley in game terms, I don't have a problem with the potential strategy. I do think that the risk/reward level is not balanced. There is very little risk, and the penalty of delayed and lost Polish MPP is easily recompensed with the elimination of French counter attack possibility. The reward, when the weather is axis favorable, is stunning.
"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft
PvtBenjamin
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by PvtBenjamin »

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

On allied turn 3 I disbanded the Polish bomber.

The city NW of Strasbourg (Metz?) is vulnerable as well as you'll see when I post pictures (hopefully later tonight). In a single turn Metz fell and Strasbourg was reduced from 10 to 5. I spent all of France's 2 turns of MPP (before the attack) on the Maginot forces with the exception of getting the fighter up to 10 str (though not yet upgraded to fighter tech 1). In hindsight I admit that I should've spent more at Metz and less on the other non city hexes, but I don't think it would've made too much of a difference.

An additional issue is that if you want to have the French HQ help, you have to rail it. If you don't it will be too close to the Stukas and still at 5 str. That's more MPP the French don't have to spare against this strategy.



Just sounds way to easy. So you reinforce all the Maginot line in the first few turns and this still happens?

There is no way one can argue the Germans would have attacked Poland w/o tanks & air.

Also it allows the Axis to take France without going thru Neth/Belgium so US/SU mobilization don't increase.

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Christolos
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by Christolos »

Very interesting thread indeed!

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PvtBenjamin
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by PvtBenjamin »

I think there are two issues, easily resolved.

1) Maginot line troops start with 0 entrenchment, it should be at least three (maybe full).

2) All Maginot line troops should have a maximum entrenchment of 6 (currently varies).

marcdhanna
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by marcdhanna »

There are certainly some amazing insights on how to play this game found in these threads. I haven't taken on board just how important entrenchment and experience gathering are.

The use of switching to maintain entrenchment levels as much as possible and not moving troops around on the Maginot are excellent points. You have to think forward in this game about defense and attacks to gain experience, as well as have foresight on the correct pattern of research given a chosen strategy.

I still disagree that HQ experience should accumulate and then be usable as transferable skills for both land and air operations though.

That encourages players to hold off conquering and instead mowing down unit after unit to build up experience points.

I'm telling you that the troops themselves would not admire leaders making them do attack after attack just to gain laurels so they could then transfer from the Wehrmacht to the Luftwaffe and become champions and naval kills on battleships! If this is how it works, I really think this should be looked at. HQ experience accumulation is too potent. Of course I have limited experience with this being handled and shown the door by one of the masters of the game. Perhaps I am still stuck in board-game strategic WW2 mentality, I'm sure there is some of that.
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Taxman66
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by Taxman66 »

Changed my mind and will wait a few days (turns) before posting images. I editted an earlier turn and decided not to on a morw current turn because doing so fails to give a good overall impression of the effects of this tactic.
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PvtBenjamin
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by PvtBenjamin »

Thinking about it I think the larger issue is the ability to take Poland w/o tanks & air. The Maginot line should certainly be strengthened but then the Axis (if they don't use tanks & air in Poland) will just attack Neth/Belgium in October/November. At least US/SU mobilization go up early. There was no way in Hell Germany was going to attack Poland & Neth/Bel/France at the same time.

Following the historic timeline a competent attack will take France by June, which is leaves plenty of time. The gamey tactic mentioned above gives the ability to capture France much earlier.

I would propose that if Poland isn't taken in 3 turns there is a 10% drop in German morale and 10% for each additional turn.

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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by PvtBenjamin »

The major downside to contributing to the forum is people will use your information against you. Now everyone is attacking Metz, hopefully the entrenchment rules change quickly.

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Taxman66
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by Taxman66 »

I hope that will be enough. It's still easy to peel off entrenchment.

I expect to be posting pictures shortly. It will be over way too soon.
"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft
PvtBenjamin
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by PvtBenjamin »

I think if all Maginot line max entrech was 6 & they start at 3/4 that would be fine. I don't know what the logic behind Metz entrench max being 4 and starting at 1 is.
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Rannug61
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by Rannug61 »

I'm in a game against Fafnir(a.k.a. the King Slayer) and he didn't go for the Maginot line but hit hard on Holland instead on turn 3. Paris fell in early June and in early august he landed in UK. He sank close to half the UK navy not loosing a single German ship. I had a good portion of the UK Navy in the Med trying to cripple the Italian navy but only got 2 battleships and he had built a Italian naval bomber so I did loose some ships too.

US and Russian readiness are up but things looks grim for the UK. It's too easy to take out Poland not using air or tanks. Even if Poland holds out until turn 4 it doesn't make a difference with this tactics. I once wrote about the Sugar War Machine but this is the Fafnir War Armageddon[;)]
Fafnirs playing style is more flexible and inventive then the Sugar War Machine.

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Taxman66
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by Taxman66 »

I don't want to get started on the naval issues again. I've made my opinion clear in the past numerous times.
"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft
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Taxman66
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by Taxman66 »

The early attack on the low lands should be helped a little bit by the next update (see earlier posts above). Will it be enough?

Again, I'm not against the Axis ever using this strategy, but there should be an element of risk (or balance) associated with it.

As an example, in another game, Axis agression against neutrals in 1939 increases US (equivalent in this game) mobilization more than it does in 1940. Oh and attacking through the Maginot is a poor choice at best. (Using typical combat odds, with planes being supplemental and no reduction of fortification levels).
"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft
PvtBenjamin
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by PvtBenjamin »

I think I've only played Fafnir once and he's definitely at a much higher skill level than me.

Having said that if the Axis attack Poland w/o their airforce & tanks their should be a penalty. There is no way in Hell the Germans were going to attack Neth/Belgium in Ocober '39. That not a what if.

Taxman is correct on the low lands, its ridiculous right now with 0 supply. Thankfully its being corrected.

The Maginot line needs to be improved also.



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Rannug61
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by Rannug61 »

If Poland hasn't gone down by turn 3 I suggest that Italian readiness should go down 3-5% and Russian readiness go up 2-4%
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Taxman66
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by Taxman66 »

How do I get these pictures under the 200KB upload limit without making them too tiny to read?

Edit
Apparently some Forums have a 200KB limit (e.g. this one), and others have a 5MB limit.
I'll post the pictures in the AAR thread later and put a link to it here.
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by Zovs »

I use Imgur to host my pics and when you click on an image I use the second to lost code and paste that into the message bypassing any pic restriction limit.
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Taxman66
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RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences

Post by Taxman66 »

You can find the example here
"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft
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