Playing Around in Vietnam

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SeaQueen
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Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by SeaQueen »

Lately, I've been reading Clashes: Air Combat Over North Vietnam 1965-1972. The book is a great source of scenario ideas for any Command player. It really details the F-4 and F-105 versus MiG-17/19/21s battles. One of the better maps in the book shows the locations of the tanker tracks F-4s and F-105s based in Thailand used to reach targets near Hanoi.

I built a quick scenario with F-4s and F-105s striking the Kep Airbase and discovered something. Command won't let me push strike aircraft to targets that far north from ARCP White! After I refuel it tells me they're not in range. Interestingly, I looked it up, and Kep Airbase was only ever struck by the Navy or B-52s in the Linebacker campaign. I guess maybe now I have a reason why!
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Primarchx
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by Primarchx »

Route 6A and 6B were split up between the USAF and USN. Truth is that line was often crossed. The issue you probably have is that USAF strike a/c often tanked on their way to and from their targets. You may need to play with the range doctrines to get this to work.
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SeaQueen
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by SeaQueen »

Do you think picking a different ARCP might help too? I sort of wondered whether the northern most ARCPs were best for servicing targets further north even though they were a less direct route.
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SeaQueen
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by SeaQueen »

I managed to get it to go by checking the "Launch mission without tankers in place" box. I guess with that box checked it doesn't expect me to manually manage where their hook up points are (e.g. place the push point near the ARCP, gas up the whole package manually, and then strike a target in range from the push point, not necessarily the base). It's good to have that option, though. I haven't needed to do that before.
ExNusquam
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by ExNusquam »

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

I managed to get it to go by checking the "Launch mission without tankers in place" box. I guess with that box checked it doesn't expect me to manually manage where their hook up points are (e.g. place the push point near the ARCP, gas up the whole package manually, and then strike a target in range from the push point, not necessarily the base). It's good to have that option, though. I haven't needed to do that before.
I've noticed that the Refueling AI tends to be very conservative (rightfully so). When you're dealing with edge cases that should work, using that checkbox to force the mission to launch is usually the only option.

If you like Clashes, it's also worth reading Michel's doctorate thesis The Revolt of the Majors.
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SeaQueen
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by SeaQueen »

I've noticed that the Refueling AI tends to be very conservative (rightfully so). When you're dealing with edge cases that should work, using that checkbox to force the mission to launch is usually the only option.

That's the thing, I unchecked it, and everything still got home alright with one exception: one of them got bounced by a MiG and when it did, it kicked into afterburner and didn't have quite enough gas to go home. Result: He crashed somewhere over Laos before making it to the boom. That's completely believable. I've heard stories of that kind of thing happening during the Vietnam war. It's neat to see Command showing how that kind of non-combat fatality could easily occur, given the ranges at which they were operating historically.
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SeaQueen
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by SeaQueen »

I'm still having trouble with the Iron Hand (SEAD) patrols running off to gas up about half way through the strike. They never make it as far as Hanoi. Still figuring that out.
ExNusquam
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by ExNusquam »

Assuming you're using F-105Fs, what loadout are you using?
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SeaQueen
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by SeaQueen »

2x AGM-45B Shrike
1x AGM-78D Standard
1x 450 USG Drop Tank
1x 650 USG Drop Tank
Cik
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by Cik »

quite surprisingly, there aren't that many scenarios about vietnam (at least in the communityscen pack) which ones are your guys' favorites?
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SeaQueen
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by SeaQueen »

Yeah... I noticed that too. They could do a whole scenario pack on just the Vietnam War, like the Arab-Israeli Wars scenario.
Cik
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by Cik »

wtb linebacker / rolling thunder / both dlc

thx
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SeaQueen
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by SeaQueen »

I don't know if I'd sell a Rolling Thunder or Linebacker campaign into one or two sets. So many things were struck multiple times during the war. One of the things which could make Rolling Thunder scenarios difficult was that they were much more restricted than the post-Johnson strikes. Linebacker was much bigger strikes, lots of B-52s. Rolling Thunder was more tactical and limited. I guess it might be two sets worth of material.

ORIGINAL: Cik

wtb linebacker / rolling thunder / both dlc

thx
SirAndrew
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by SirAndrew »

Hi!
I've noticed the lack of Vietnam-era scenarios, but the amazing Yankee Team is a must-play and I like the Gulf of Tonkin, the Battle of Dong-Hoi and Operation Market Time scenarios too.
It's not strictly a Vietnam-era scenario, but if you don't mind a little dogfighting, I've recently made a History of Air-to-Air Combat tutorial, detailing the various historical battles and adding a lot of info about tactics and weapons!
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tjhkkr
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by tjhkkr »

I just read recently that the North Vietnamese Air Force attacked a couple of U.S. destroyers with MiG-17s.
I thought the vast majority of their air activity was defensive in nature... apparently not so.

I am working on a couple of scenarios... one at Khe Sahn (had a couple of set backs with -saves- at the wrong time), and a fictitious one where China gets involved.
Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.
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SeaQueen
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by SeaQueen »

Most, but not all... I read something about American DDGs engaging Vietnamese fighters with Terrier or Tartar missiles somewhere?

Unlike in the Korean War where there were a lot of highly trained Soviet pilots, all evidence suggests that in Vietnam the MiG pilots were mostly Vietnamese. The result was that in the beginning, they weren't as highly trained as they were towards the end of the war. In fact, many of the MiGs encountered during the Rolling Thunder campaign were later believed to be student pilots on training missions who had been accidentally run into by strike missions.

For the multinational/colonial wars sorts, there could even be a Battle of Dien Bien Phu scenario where American CIA pilots in B-26s were providing CAS to French forces fighting the Viet Minh. You could even do a "What if?" scenario because apparently the use of nuclear weapons to support the French was discussed extensively, both by Admiral Radford (Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time) and by John Foster Dulles (who I believe was still head of the CIA at the time).

ORIGINAL: tjhkkr

I just read recently that the North Vietnamese Air Force attacked a couple of U.S. destroyers with MiG-17s.
I thought the vast majority of their air activity was defensive in nature... apparently not so.

I am working on a couple of scenarios... one at Khe Sahn (had a couple of set backs with -saves- at the wrong time), and a fictitious one where China gets involved.
cns180784
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by cns180784 »

ORIGINAL: SirAndrew

Hi!
I've noticed the lack of Vietnam-era scenarios, but the amazing Yankee Team is a must-play and I like the Gulf of Tonkin, the Battle of Dong-Hoi and Operation Market Time scenarios too.
It's not strictly a Vietnam-era scenario, but if you don't mind a little dogfighting, I've recently made a History of Air-to-Air Combat tutorial, detailing the various historical battles and adding a lot of info about tactics and weapons!
Hi SirAndrew i just happened to notice you missed out one other Vietnam scenario called Down Town which is one of the standalone scenarios...you probably just forgot to mention but maybe you have yet to notice it. I enjoyed it, you launch an Alpha strike on some targets in North Vietnam. Its a good scenario to get the juices flowing before attempting Yankee Team which i still havent started on yet.
Lowlaner2012
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by Lowlaner2012 »

Hi guys, I like playing scenarios in the Vietnam era, was there a scenario that covered a 1972/73 Lnebacker strike?

Or am I remembering wrongly?

Cheers
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tjhkkr
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by tjhkkr »

ORIGINAL: Lowlaner2012
Hi guys, I like playing scenarios in the Vietnam era, was there a scenario that covered a 1972/73 Lnebacker strike?
Or am I remembering wrongly?
Cheers

Seemed to me that it was in the Community scenarios and not the main list.
Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.
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tjhkkr
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RE: Playing Around in Vietnam

Post by tjhkkr »

By the way:
http://www.rjsmith.com/topo_map.html
GREAT maps of Vietnam/Laos.

And I found a couple a PDF with most of the major targets and Vietnam firebases.
Enjoy!
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Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.
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