936.2 Hostage Ware?

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peterc100248
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936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by peterc100248 »

Congratulations. Your update just made it impossible to use the program with any scenario created with a platform with ABM lasers because the new sales pitch locks such scenarios out. It says "High Energy Lasers required", sends you to something to spend money on which is not available, then returns you to scenario selection. Wouldn't it have been just as effective to put the sales pitch in, but just put a software switch in to disable high energy lasers in existing scenarios until the sales pitch is really meaningful?

If this remains, then I will have to think very hard before spending any more money on CMANO.
Peter66
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by Peter66 »

This is unfortunate that you feel this way. For me I want to see Command grow and prosper, always getting new features. Sometimes we have to pay a small price to get those features. I'm not quite sure how you class it as "Hostage Ware" I think I would rephrase it to "hostage where?"

I think very hard before spending any money but I think it's money well spent on this project. If you don't want the features nobodies forcing you to buy the upgrade.
"Is game hard to pick up?" <- easier to pick up than most women.
Dimitris
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by Dimitris »

Just to clarify: You used the pre-existing laser weapons? (ABL Coil-shot and LaWS). Asking because I am pretty certain that we allow these two for non-DLC setups.

If you can post (or privately send) the scenario in question we can have a look at it.

Thanks for giving us the benefit of the doubt.
peterc100248
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by peterc100248 »

Here is the scenario. I cannot even determine which laser is triggering the problem because I can't open it in the editor.

If I sound short, it's only because whoever programmed that feature didn't test it before offering the code up as a release candidate. I think a feature that invalidates things your customers may like isn't going to be well received.

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Dimitris
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by Dimitris »

I looked into this now.

1) Using a previous build, you added a "Laser Shot (Solid State Fiber)" weapon to the ship "DDG 127 Biddle". If you had attempted to fire this weapon in pre-v1.12 versions, you would have received a "this weapon is not supported until v1.12" message. We notified players long ago that only the pre-existing laser weapons (ABL COIL-shot and LaWS) would be freely available. The additional laser weapons fall under the "HELs Phase-2" category and are available only upon purchasing the "Chains of War" DLC.

2) The simplest way to resolve this is: Using v1.11 SR7 (which you still have, if you backed up your existing installation as per our instructions), open the scenario in ScenEdit mode and remove the SSF laser. You can replace it with either the ABL COIL-Shot or the LaWS laser; either of these will not be blocked. You need to do this for every platform that has has this laser or any other new system. Save the scenario and then load it in v1.12 RC.

3) Your assertion that the v1.12 RC "just made it impossible to use the program with any scenario created with a platform with ABM lasers" is wrong. Your assertion that "whoever programmed that feature didn't test it before offering the code up" is also wrong.

peterc100248
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by peterc100248 »

Then the question must become: Do you intend to continue to support v1.11 SR7 with bug fixes that are discovered?
Peter66
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by Peter66 »

peterc100248 I think the question I would be asking instead is, since when have the developers ceased to continue support or stop bug fixes? I'm sorry but I don't seem to understand what you are so annoyed about.

1) You added DLC lasers to a ship and complained it needed the DLC.
2) You complained that the programmers didn't test this. Yet it is working as intended, or am I mistaken?

It would seem it is you who is in the wrong yet you continue to believe you are right with no evidence to prove otherwise. Some people would consider apologising at this stage but I somehow expect otherwise.
"Is game hard to pick up?" <- easier to pick up than most women.
Kitchens Sink
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by Kitchens Sink »

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

I looked into this now.

1) Using a previous build, you added a "Laser Shot (Solid State Fiber)" weapon to the ship "DDG 127 Biddle". If you had attempted to fire this weapon in pre-v1.12 versions, you would have received a "this weapon is not supported until v1.12" message. We notified players long ago that only the pre-existing laser weapons (ABL COIL-shot and LaWS) would be freely available. The additional laser weapons fall under the "HELs Phase-2" category and are available only upon purchasing the "Chains of War" DLC.

2) The simplest way to resolve this is: Using v1.11 SR7 (which you still have, if you backed up your existing installation as per our instructions), open the scenario in ScenEdit mode and remove the SSF laser. You can replace it with either the ABL COIL-Shot or the LaWS laser; either of these will not be blocked. You need to do this for every platform that has has this laser or any other new system. Save the scenario and then load it in v1.12 RC.

3) Your assertion that the v1.12 RC "just made it impossible to use the program with any scenario created with a platform with ABM lasers" is wrong. Your assertion that "whoever programmed that feature didn't test it before offering the code up" is also wrong.


Sunburn, I think that the issue is a little deeper than that. Here is my recollections and perspective:

1. In earlier versions, all forms of lasers were available to add to platforms. No restrictions and paid DLC content wasn't discussed.

2. In a later version, all of the lasers were disabled with a message stating they would be re-activated in v. 1.12. Again, there was no mention of DLC issues, just that the laser systems were all being "overhauled". In a following version, 2 of the laser systems were re-activated (again I didn't see any mention that the others lasers would only be active via paid DLC).

3. In the latest version, scenarios with lasers that were not re-activated will not load at all. Scenario designers must downgrade to the previous version of the game, remove the "now forbidden" lasers, and then re-upgrade the game...which seems a little tedious.

Maybe it's possible to allow loading of scenarios containing the DLC-only lasers in the newest game version, with a note that those lasers will not function unless you purchase the DLC? (similar to the note when all lasers were deactivated).

Thanks!
peterc100248
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by peterc100248 »

Thank you Kitchens Sink. That is the problem. It also seems the developers have created a fork in the road of program development with this latest update. My suggestion is exactly as you state in your last paragraph. That would be far less work than potentially dividing your user/buyer database.

The previous version is working, but who knows what serious bugs may be discovered tomorrow. Will Matrix work to fix those bugs - commit to maintaining work on the latest version of CMANO not requiring Chains of War?

The previous version works well to notify the scenario designer that those weapons do not work. I have no issues with that approach.

In addition, it is not possible to purchase Chains of War on the website the latest version directs you to. Well fine. I'm willing to wait, IF I could work with all the scenarios I have created in the meantime. I have to downgrade to do that.
Peter66
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by Peter66 »

Now I start to see where you are coming from. Here's where I think you've got confused:

Quote from: tm.asp?m=4261480
"can be played as a separate game (with the possibility to upgrade it to the base game with all the available database and scenarios at any point in time). Alternatively, it can be integrated as a new set of scenarios for owners of the original"

It would seem that the expansion is not the equivalent of the full software. So why would they stop supporting the full Command Modern Air/Naval Operations experience? I would suggest doing some research before accusing people of things. To find that information took me less than 2 minutes, probably faster than it took for you to post.

As for your issues with how they handled lasers in the DLC then that's fine. We all have our own opinions.

You can easily work with the scenarios you have already created right now. All of mine work just fine.
"Is game hard to pick up?" <- easier to pick up than most women.
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ultradave
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by ultradave »

ORIGINAL: peterc100248

The previous version is working, but who knows what serious bugs may be discovered tomorrow. Will Matrix work to fix those bugs - commit to maintaining work on the latest version of CMANO not requiring Chains of War?

Same version really, right? The DLC works WITH the existing update path of C:MANO. I understand the part about things only working with Chains of War, and there will probably be differing opinions about that, but 1.12 will just be the next version after 1.11 with the caveat that some things will require Chains of War to work. It's not really a fork in the development, which implies two separately developed versions on parallel paths after a split, and each updated separately. More like having a license for a feature.

Personally I have no problem with this. The amount of extra content, database updates, new features, and the responsiveness of the developer, that I've gotten for free after the initial purchase - to me, it's astounding when compared to anything comparable. Seems fair to pony up a few bucks :-)
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peterc100248
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by peterc100248 »

Honestly those of you who do not work for Matrix seem to be more knowledgeable about what Matrix is doing than they are. Please...can you let the developers speak for themselves?

Now for the developers, I have discovered that an old scenario, upgraded to the latest database, or even created with the latest database, under 936.2 can be caused to not load in exactly the way my old scenario does. Just take a ship, add a laser weapon mount, then add a laser that is not supported. Works fine - as long as you don't save it. (I doubt the laser works, but I haven't tried it) Save it and reload it? Gone. You cannot reload it because you get taken to the upgrade trap.

All of this happens without a word of warning that adding one of the upgrade weapons to a laser mount will cause the scenario to be unloadable if saved.

This does not just happen with lasers, as you know. If you select the rail gun 155mm AGS, add a mount to an existing platform, and save the scenario? Same result. You cannot load that scenario you edited, and there is not any warning that this is going to happen.

I want to be clear here. I'm not concerned that the laser/AGS gun rounds are not usable. I'm concerned that scenarios created prior to 936.2 that happen to have whatever now triggers the "unloadable" feature (or any feature yet to be discovered), or new scenarios created under 936.2 without the upgrade that trigger the trap, are effectively rendered unusable if saved.

As things stand, that is a divergent path. Without seeing your code, I would think it can be easily corrected with a simple "if then else" qualifier for those features that only come into play with the upgrade, but that is a guess.
Excroat3
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by Excroat3 »

Maybe just add a message that the weapon won't fire if you don't own the DLC. I can see it easily becoming a major problem if scenario authors who have the DLC start to release scenarios with these weapons in it and not releasing a different version without those weapons. With the current "lock out" feature that peter is talking about, this might create a large divide in the C:MANO community in terms of scenario authors and community testers.
DWReese
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by DWReese »

Peter,

Don't take this the wrong way, but the tone of your messages are coming across really strong. This is especially true for someone who just joined this forum (according to your name) just 23 days ago.

If you had (or have) been around a little bit longer you would have seen that these guys pump out a new version (correction/update) about every two weeks. I've never seen a company give you as many updates, and correct things, all for free, as fast as they do. Most companies charge you for everything. This group is great, and all of the upgrades are free.

Sometimes, their responses to us can sound a little short, or lacking specificity, but in this case it is your messages that are sounding a little snarky, at least to me.

Personally, I bug these guys to death when an update "breaks" something that used to work for me. Almost immediately I point it out, and it is usually fixed by the next day, sometimes even the same day. They do listen.

I just wanted you to hear this from someone other than them. I am the last person who would ever be considered to be an apologist for them, but they really are a good group of guys, and they work harder at making this game better every day.

Like you or not (and I'm not saying that they don't), I'm sure that they will have your issue resolved ASAP. They have always fixed mine, and I can be a real persistent pain.

Not that it matters, but perhaps if you softened the tone of your message it would be a little more palpable to everyone's eyes. But, to say that they rendered something "impossible to use" or calling it "hostage ware" sounds a little strong, don't you think?

In any case, if I am out of bounds for these remarks, please consider that they are MY remarks, and allow me to apologize in advance.

Thanks in advance.

Doug
mavfin
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by mavfin »

(@the OP)
Yeah, the tone's a bit strident. Try to cool down *before* posting. Hostage Ware is a bit over the top. You'll get more flies with honey than vinegar. But I'm not kissing Mike for any reason, either. [&:]

The scenarios that can't even be opened/edited, vs mounts just not working, could be a concern. Perhaps bring up the DLC splash when opened, but let them close it and continue on. Let them open it in the editor and remove the offending weapons?

On the other hand, you really shouldn't get all bent out of shape on a clearly labeled 'test' or 'candidate' update pack, either. It's posts like the OP's that makes developers want to have people for closed beta testing because people fly off the handle over stuff that's being open beta tested, not yet 'released'. I see this all the time in Player Test stuff for other games, where people get all hot under the collar when it's clearly labeled 'TEST'.

My 2 cents, FWIW.

Mav



--Mav
mikmykWS
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by mikmykWS »

Hey I'm secure enough with who I am for a dude smooch! Anytime pal!

Once CoW ships I'm retiring from Command work anyways. I't was a great ride did what I wanted to do but time to have a normal life:)

Dimitris is not looking to hose anybody. Like always he tries to do his best.

Mike
JPFisher55
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by JPFisher55 »

IMHO, the simple solution is to purchase the "Chain of War" expansion. The developers of CMANO have completed development and expansion work beyond what any reasonable person would expect for free. Purchasing the new expansion pack is just compensation for their work and encourages future development.

Mike, I especially miss you. Thank you for all that you have done to make CMANO the best wargame on the market. FWIW, I never thought that the old Harpoon could turn into anything like CMANO.
mikmykWS
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by mikmykWS »

Yeah When Gilman gave us the ole.. if you don't like it go build your own game I don't think he expected this either! Glad we were able to achieve our goals with this project,

It's going to be fun just being able to have fun!

Mike
mavfin
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by mavfin »

A replacement had to be made at some point. You can modernize Windows XP a lot...but it's still XP, and it's still way past End of Life.

Also, the gaming/simulation world has changed as well. The old game was coded when RAM used and disk space used was a real consideration. The computer I originally played on had a 250 MB hard drive, and 36 MB of RAM. You might install the game on your computer, and run the scenarios from CD. I never did, but I still go far back enough to have received an update to the game via snail mail on a floppy disk.

So, yeah. Time moves on. I'm glad you guys made this one. There's basically nothing out there with this level of detail. I just hope someone makes a replacement when the time comes for this one.

Mav

--Mav
Eggstor
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RE: 936.2 Hostage Ware?

Post by Eggstor »

Don't get me started on the kludges used in the DOS version of the old game. It was more than a minor miracle that it even got running on the Windows NT family.
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