Jammers and DECM

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wqc12345
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Jammers and DECM

Post by wqc12345 »

Hi,

I've been playing a lot of Vietnam scenarios lately and I was wondering to what fidelity are the jammers and DECM pods modeled in the game.

For example, the F-105F and it's embedded Westinghouse AN/ALQ-105. I've looked on the side of the NVA and I can't really deduce what "Jammed" means with respect to the assets on the ground?

Does this mean that they can't get a lock on my incoming package?

The other thing I'm slightly confused about is the white number next to the target when the US Jammers turn on? What does this represent? Is this the number of jammers active on the target? or is this some strength indicator?

I was reading in another post about how burn-through is also modeled, and I've tried to see how this happens by moving the F-105's closer to the Fan Song or other SAM sites, again, the indication of "Jammed" doesn't really tell me if the Radar or SAM site can "do anything".. and it's not always clear if the target site has "burned through" the 105's jam? Is there something I can look for? or understand how jamming works in general to better understand this game mechanic?

I've always been interested in modeling Vietnam scenarios with American '60's tech against Soviet 60's tech to really see how it all plays out.. I just want to understand better how it works, so I can deduce the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of the jammers.. Also, I'm not just talking about the 105's, I'm interested in how a B-52 with it's Rivet Rambler upgrades deals with SA-2's in say '72.. which it didn't do all that well against, but still, I'm more interested in how the game works and how to measure the jamming better when I play.

I should also point out, I totally get that CMANO logic is most likely random and jammers don't work perfectly, and I'm sure this randomness in the jamming cycle is simulated, you know, when that fine NVA Colonel who knows who to orient his Fan Song in such a way that it makes the Yankee dogs mad..

Thanks,
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Dysta
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RE: Jammers and DECM

Post by Dysta »

As far as I know, DECM is working a bit like a lottery system in CMANO: starting with base spoofing percentage like 10% or around, and then affected by the technology rate of missile's sensor and DECM. The more advance of missile sensors: the less chance to get spoofed.

Consider air unit don't have any hard-kill method to stop AAM threats, the jammer is pretty much the last defense, so don't rely on it too much.
mikmykWS
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RE: Jammers and DECM

Post by mikmykWS »

ORIGINAL: Dysta

As far as I know, DECM is working a bit like a lottery system in CMANO: starting with base spoofing percentage like 10% or around, and then affected by the technology rate of missile's sensor and DECM. The more advance of missile sensors: the less chance to get spoofed.

Consider air unit don't have any hard-kill method to stop AAM threats, the jammer is pretty much the last defense, so don't rely on it too much.

Its not a lottery system but generational, frequency dependent and a number of other things. We probably should write something more permanent at some point so I'll ask.

Missiles can be spoofed by DECM and decoys.

Thanks!

MIke
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Dysta
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RE: Jammers and DECM

Post by Dysta »

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

frequency dependent

I wish there's a way to know of what bandwidth the missile/DECM is operating. I am sure I will have a huge poker face when seeing jets get slaughtered even with DECM is operating, because of the wrong frequency it try to spoof.
mikmykWS
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RE: Jammers and DECM

Post by mikmykWS »

You learn much just by playing the game.[:)]

Mike
Dimitris
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RE: Jammers and DECM

Post by Dimitris »

ORIGINAL: wqc12345
For example, the F-105F and it's embedded Westinghouse AN/ALQ-105. I've looked on the side of the NVA and I can't really deduce what "Jammed" means with respect to the assets on the ground?

Does this mean that they can't get a lock on my incoming package?

It means that they're being jammed, ie. actively attacked electronically. Whether the jamming is sufficient to prevent them from launching their weapons or they're able to burn through it, depends on a number of factors such as geometry (azimuths and ranges count a lot!), raw power, signal characteristics, tech generations and a few other things.
The other thing I'm slightly confused about is the white number next to the target when the US Jammers turn on? What does this represent? Is this the number of jammers active on the target? or is this some strength indicator?
Number of vehicles/aimpoints in the unit.
I was reading in another post about how burn-through is also modeled, and I've tried to see how this happens by moving the F-105's closer to the Fan Song or other SAM sites, again, the indication of "Jammed" doesn't really tell me if the Radar or SAM site can "do anything".. and it's not always clear if the target site has "burned through" the 105's jam? Is there something I can look for? or understand how jamming works in general to better understand this game mechanic?
As in real life, you're never 100% certain. If they stop shooting at you it's a fair indication.... but then again they may be simply reloading.
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wqc12345
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RE: Jammers and DECM

Post by wqc12345 »

Thanks so much Sunburn..

I guess as a follow-on question, when I "switch-sides" and review the jamming effectiveness, I noticed that the unit is jammed, but based on what you indicated, this only means they are actively targeted by the jamming? and may or may not be able to shoot. Is there something on that unit when I switch sides that indicates it's firing ability? or no? I guess that's what I was looking for in terms of jam indication..

cns180784
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RE: Jammers and DECM

Post by cns180784 »

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

You learn much just by playing the game.[:)]

Mike
And i just learned that an early 70's tech ELINT sensor on a AB 212 EW chopper couldnt detect an early 60's tech air search 2D radar on a D20 Fife FFG. But as soon as i had the FFG turn on its early 70's tech 2D radar (type 992Q i think, something like that) the EW choppers' ELINT detected it straight away.

Only thing is that the older tech radar was partially jammed by the EW choppers' OECM and couldnt get a firm fix on the chopper until it got to 29nm away preventing the FFG's SAM's from getting off a shot at max range, but the newer 70's tech radar got a proper fix on it straight away and easily burns through the jamming.

wqc12345, what i do using the editor is i have the unit that is being jammed manually target the jammer using a SAM that is SARH, if it cant fire due to insufficient target illumination then the jammer is doing its job well, at that point at least but if it gets closer then the radar of the jammed unit can burn through it.

EDIT: Actually turns out the OECM on the chopper seems to do nothing, its just the old 60's tech of the radar on the FFG that cant get a proper fix on where the chopper exactly is until it gets to 29nm away.
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