[UPDATED DB v445] Database Request

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DWReese
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[UPDATED DB v445] Database Request

Post by DWReese »

Ragnar,

I would like to see some air craft that have a "SEAD" loadout where iTALDS (or decoys) are carried. Right now, I have had to find ARM-armed planes and delete those weapons and then add the iTALDs. The Loadout, however, still lists the planes as having a HARM Loadout, even though they are no longer carrying HARMs at all. It's just a thought.

Doug
mikmykWS
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RE: Database Request

Post by mikmykWS »

Could you add this to the db string with sources and pictures of the loadouts?

Thanks

Mike
DWReese
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RE: Database Request

Post by DWReese »

Mike,

I assume that your response message was for me, but I'm not sure.

I attached a link to the Israeli F-16I plane, and it lists all of the various weapons carried. Interestingly, the TALDs were actually created/designed for the USN by the Israelis. Obviously, the TALD and ITALD are weapons that can be carried by the IAF.

The link has some great pictures, as well.

Hopefully, this is what you wanted.

http://israeli-weapons.com/weapons/airc ... /F-16.html

Thanks again,

Doug
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michaelm75au
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RE: Database Request

Post by michaelm75au »

Database requests should go here tm.asp?m=3436106
Michael
mikmykWS
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RE: Database Request

Post by mikmykWS »

ORIGINAL: DWReese

Mike,

I assume that your response message was for me, but I'm not sure.

I attached a link to the Israeli F-16I plane, and it lists all of the various weapons carried. Interestingly, the TALDs were actually created/designed for the USN by the Israelis. Obviously, the TALD and ITALD are weapons that can be carried by the IAF.

The link has some great pictures, as well.

Hopefully, this is what you wanted.

http://israeli-weapons.com/weapons/airc ... /F-16.html

Thanks again,

Doug

Yes nobody else responded to your initial post so its gotta be you I'm reply too.

Not sure on that picture. Not even sure its a F-16 or F-15. Anyways we'll do some digging and see what we come up with.

This could be awhile.

Mike
jimcarravall
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RE: Database Request

Post by jimcarravall »

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

ORIGINAL: DWReese

Mike,

I assume that your response message was for me, but I'm not sure.

I attached a link to the Israeli F-16I plane, and it lists all of the various weapons carried. Interestingly, the TALDs were actually created/designed for the USN by the Israelis. Obviously, the TALD and ITALD are weapons that can be carried by the IAF.

The link has some great pictures, as well.

Hopefully, this is what you wanted.

http://israeli-weapons.com/weapons/airc ... /F-16.html

Thanks again,

Doug

Yes nobody else responded to your initial post so its gotta be you I'm reply too.

Not sure on that picture. Not even sure its a F-16 or F-15. Anyways we'll do some digging and see what we come up with.

This could be awhile.

Mike
F-16 Air intake is below the cockpit.

F-15 Air intake is integrated into where the wing connects to the fuselage.
Take care,

jim
ExNusquam
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RE: Database Request

Post by ExNusquam »

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Yes nobody else responded to your initial post so its gotta be you I'm reply too.

Not sure on that picture. Not even sure its a F-16 or F-15. Anyways we'll do some digging and see what we come up with.

This could be awhile.

Mike
Mike, for your reference, the only picture of a TALD on that page is one attached to the wing of a legacy F/A-18.

Image Reference/Image from Israeli-weapons.com
Compare the pylon shape (SUU-63, for reference), as well as the interface between the drooped ailerons/flaps. F-16 Pylons lack the kink visible on the SUU-63, and furthermore, F-16's don't have ailerons. I'd put money on the fact that the picture from Isreaeli-Weapons is from a USN F/A-18 during the test phase (hence the orange paint). I think the file name is a red herring.
mikmykWS
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RE: Database Request

Post by mikmykWS »

Agreed thanks guys. Will continue to dig to see if we can find any hint of Israeli MALD/TALD loadouts.

Mike
DWReese
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RE: Database Request

Post by DWReese »

Thanks for responding.

I'm asking this question for knowledge, not to be confrontational.

If I am reading your post correctly, it appears that you are stating that the F-16I can not carry the ITALD, is that correct?

If not, what would they carry instead? What platform would Israel use to deploy the ITALD/TALD decoy? I would sincerely like to know. I have never heard that before, but you sound like you are knowledgeable on the topic, so that's why I am asking. The site that I provided indicated that they could. Why would they do that if it wasn't accurate?

If I am reading the history of the TALD correctly, it appears that Israel was, at least, involved in its original development. It would seem odd that the country wouldn't have a platform to deliver it.

Whatever knowledge that you can pass along would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, in advance.

Doug
mikmykWS
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RE: Database Request

Post by mikmykWS »

It looks like everybody is trying to help

Thanks

Mike
jimcarravall
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RE: Database Request

Post by jimcarravall »

ORIGINAL: DWReese

Thanks for responding.

I'm asking this question for knowledge, not to be confrontational.

If I am reading your post correctly, it appears that you are stating that the F-16I can not carry the ITALD, is that correct?

If not, what would they carry instead? What platform would Israel use to deploy the ITALD/TALD decoy? I would sincerely like to know. I have never heard that before, but you sound like you are knowledgeable on the topic, so that's why I am asking. The site that I provided indicated that they could. Why would they do that if it wasn't accurate?

If I am reading the history of the TALD correctly, it appears that Israel was, at least, involved in its original development. It would seem odd that the country wouldn't have a platform to deliver it.

Whatever knowledge that you can pass along would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, in advance.

Doug
Images of F-16I loadouts, including TLAD, and ITLAD decoys

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/ ... F-16I.html
Take care,

jim
mikmykWS
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RE: Database Request

Post by mikmykWS »

Jim we were talking about those same photos above. They're on a F/A-18.

Mike
anxiousbob
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RE: Database Request

Post by anxiousbob »

I would expect them to use vipers, but how sure are you that they have TALD/ITALD at all? The only reference to them possibly using decoys that I could find was a blurb on IMI's website referring to their decoys as "combat proven" in USN and Israeli service, but I think that may refer to the Samson drone, which the Israelis did use in combat. That was developed into the Delilah cruise missile, which seems to be the primary SEAD tool for the F-16I these days.
jimcarravall
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RE: Database Request

Post by jimcarravall »

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Jim we were talking about those same photos above. They're on a F/A-18.

Mike
My mistake.

It was a different URL and label, and I didn't see the discussion on the F/A 18 analysis.

I'll keep looking.

Take care,

jim
mikmykWS
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RE: Database Request

Post by mikmykWS »

Ok found a couple of sources pointing at TALD usage in the early 80's and an AAR from the soviets from RAND. I totally believe it.

Looking here..TALD's etc. come from Delilah (Chukar like drone not CM..that came later) and Samson. One was ground launched and the other air launched.

Still not finding pictures of them loaded. Key might worth adding Samson to Delilah to any search.
jimcarravall
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RE: Database Request

Post by jimcarravall »

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Ok found a couple of sources pointing at TALD usage in the early 80's and an AAR from the soviets from RAND. I totally believe it.

Looking here..TALD's etc. come from Delilah (Chukar like drone not CM..that came later) and Samson. One was ground launched and the other air launched.

Still not finding pictures of them loaded. Key might worth adding Samson to Delilah to any search.

I'm thinking Samson and Delilah are the Israeli version of what we know as ADM 141A and ADM 141C. All were initially designed by Brunswick, with the Samson surviving as an Israeli production effort after the original ADM 141 concept was turned down by the US Air Force, and Delilah gaining an engine around the time the Navy-funded effort resurrected Brunswick's original work for the Air Force as its ADM 141 procurement(s).

Here's what I find as a link between Samson and Delilah designs.

http://www.iaf.org.il/5642-35312-en/IAF.aspx

Here's where I found a linking of the Israeli Military Industries Brunswick production.

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-141.html

Back in the day I was working the logistics integration of an "active protection system" for the Army's Future Combat System armored vehicles. That Army active protection system was an adaption of the Israeli-designed system already battle tested on Israeli armored vehicles. It isn't a stretch to expect cooperation in other armed services on weapons designs, particularly as the US DoD licenses development and production of state side designed weapons for foreign allies when the technologies prove salable overseas but aren't necessarily funded for immediate production or procurement by US the military once a design has been set.

I'm thinking this is a similar parallel between Samson Delilah and the Navy's ADM series.

As the first article indicates, Delilah was a highly secret weapons system, which may indicate why there aren't any publicly available photos of the drones installed on an Israeli aircraft.

About the only reference I could find regarding aircraft mounting was that the devices were capable of being mounted on a wing pod in up to groups of six per pod with no indication of a specific aircraft. Also ran across a reference of decoys being launched from Israeli versions of the C-130, perhaps indicating that the means to get the decoys to an appropriate height to mimic targets is pretty flexible.
Take care,

jim
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airwinger63
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RE: Database Request

Post by airwinger63 »

There's some good info here.. First night of the first gulf war, all I loaded was TALD (ADM-141) and GBU-10s (2,000 lbs Paveways II) on A-6E on Saratoga.

http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcont ... k_gradthes


Airwinger63
ORIGINAL: mikmyk

It looks like everybody is trying to help

Thanks

Mike
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mikmykWS
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RE: Database Request

Post by mikmykWS »

Thanks for posting that. Lots of good information there!

Mike
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airwinger63
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RE: Database Request

Post by airwinger63 »

No thank you for such a great product and even greater support for it.

Airwinger63
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If You Ain't Ordnance You Ain't Shit.
thewood1
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RE: Database Request

Post by thewood1 »

That is an awesome doc and link. Reinforces a couple things for me...

1) How much real engineering goes into a fairly simple design. I have heard people ask a few times why the military can't just use simple drones to do stuff like this. The testing shows the number of things that can go wrong and how much testing needs to be done to assure performance. Its amazing to me how disciplined the testing environment is. Most of the is learned through the school of hard knocks. Makes me wonder how disciplined some of the countries with newer military industrial infrastructure fair in an advanced development environment.

2) It also gives a hint into why turnaround times are so long for aircraft. If you are carrying even just six ITALDs, it seems like it would take a while just to plan and program the profiles. That's on top of all the other tasks needed to get a strike off the ground.

Again, thanks for the link.
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