[TWEAKED B820] Odd Behavior

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peterc100248
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:37 pm

[TWEAKED B820] Odd Behavior

Post by peterc100248 »

I've been just trying different things out to get a feel for how the program works. Here are several things I've seen that I think might be bugs in Build 818, but I posted them here anyway:

I've been using the "Israel Strikes, 2014" scenario.

I watched as some F-15I's dropped GBU-31(V)1/B JDAMs on an SSM TEL (facility 488 SSM Bn). In 8 attacks the SSM "SPOOFED" the JDAMs every time and caused them to all miss. In fact, I ran several flights at this particular target and had the same results every time. That "spoofing" might be possible IF the SSM Bn in question had any sensors or EW capability - oddly enough it has a Mk-1 eyeball only. Spoofed a JDAM? Really? That is a cute trick seeing as you must somehow block the reception of GPS signals, and a couple of other classified systems on-board the bomb. Pretty tough when the only hardware you have is a Mk-1 eyeball.

Moving on. I modified the same scenario and tried some nuclear attacks (same target) with a B-2 and B-83 (gravity) bombs. All I can say is don't try this at home using a strike mission. As the B-2 approached the IP, the aircraft dropped down to about 5000 AGL, despite being instructed to maintain military throttle and max altitude. To add insult to injury, the plane, after dropping the bomb (which is parachute retarded) circled around at low level watching for the bomb to hit. Result: one fried B-2 - and the B-83 missed the SSM TEL by 150 ft, so it survived. Right. I don't think a 1.2MT nuke miss of 150 feet changes much. I suspect the algorithm that calculates strike aircraft behavior is designed to only handle conventional weapon attacks - not nuclear.

Finally I tried some Trident missle strikes. The MIRV sequence working was a pleasant surprise, the "malfunctioning" of as many as half of the MIRV warheads was rather odd. The warheads getting fried by an EMP pulse was another oddity. EMP, usually only affects non-hardened systems, certainly not MIRV warheads. The other oddity was the warhead missing the target by 300 feet, causing a miss! On an above ground SSM TEL no less!

I think the nuclear weapon modelling needs some research of unclassified materials and some fine tuning.

I suspect the "spoofing" of JDAMs is just a bug.
ComDev
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RE: Odd Behavior

Post by ComDev »

Thanks for your input Peter, could you post some savegames please?
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ComDev
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RE: Odd Behavior

Post by ComDev »

Okay had a quick look, comments below. Still need saves though [8D]
ORIGINAL: peterc100248

I've been just trying different things out to get a feel for how the program works. Here are several things I've seen that I think might be bugs in Build 818, but I posted them here anyway:

I've been using the "Israel Strikes, 2014" scenario.

I watched as some F-15I's dropped GBU-31(V)1/B JDAMs on an SSM TEL (facility 488 SSM Bn). In 8 attacks the SSM "SPOOFED" the JDAMs every time and caused them to all miss. In fact, I ran several flights at this particular target and had the same results every time. That "spoofing" might be possible IF the SSM Bn in question had any sensors or EW capability - oddly enough it has a Mk-1 eyeball only. Spoofed a JDAM? Really? That is a cute trick seeing as you must somehow block the reception of GPS signals, and a couple of other classified systems on-board the bomb. Pretty tough when the only hardware you have is a Mk-1 eyeball.


I have not been able to reproduce this in B819. Need savegame [:)]

ORIGINAL: peterc100248
Moving on. I modified the same scenario and tried some nuclear attacks (same target) with a B-2 and B-83 (gravity) bombs. All I can say is don't try this at home using a strike mission. As the B-2 approached the IP, the aircraft dropped down to about 5000 AGL, despite being instructed to maintain military throttle and max altitude. To add insult to injury, the plane, after dropping the bomb (which is parachute retarded) circled around at low level watching for the bomb to hit. Result: one fried B-2 - and the B-83 missed the SSM TEL by 150 ft, so it survived. Right. I don't think a 1.2MT nuke miss of 150 feet changes much. I suspect the algorithm that calculates strike aircraft behavior is designed to only handle conventional weapon attacks - not nuclear.


Fair, was an edge case here. Please try this again in B820.

ORIGINAL: peterc100248
Finally I tried some Trident missle strikes. The MIRV sequence working was a pleasant surprise, the "malfunctioning" of as many as half of the MIRV warheads was rather odd. The warheads getting fried by an EMP pulse was another oddity. EMP, usually only affects non-hardened systems, certainly not MIRV warheads. The other oddity was the warhead missing the target by 300 feet, causing a miss! On an above ground SSM TEL no less!

I think the nuclear weapon modelling needs some research of unclassified materials and some fine tuning.

I suspect the "spoofing" of JDAMs is just a bug.

I'm leaving the MIRV stuff for Dimitris, he's the nuke expert.
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ComDev
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RE: Odd Behavior

Post by ComDev »

As for the B-2 altitude, did you update the waypoint orders?

It is impossible to look into this stuff without a save.
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Dimitris
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RE: Odd Behavior

Post by Dimitris »

Hello,
ORIGINAL: peterc100248
I watched as some F-15I's dropped GBU-31(V)1/B JDAMs on an SSM TEL (facility 488 SSM Bn). In 8 attacks the SSM "SPOOFED" the JDAMs every time and caused them to all miss. In fact, I ran several flights at this particular target and had the same results every time. That "spoofing" might be possible IF the SSM Bn in question had any sensors or EW capability - oddly enough it has a Mk-1 eyeball only. Spoofed a JDAM? Really? That is a cute trick seeing as you must somehow block the reception of GPS signals, and a couple of other classified systems on-board the bomb. Pretty tough when the only hardware you have is a Mk-1 eyeball.

This sounds like a bug, but I haven't been able to reproduce it. If it's happening consistently on you, please provide a suitable pre-occurence save for investigation.
Moving on. I modified the same scenario and tried some nuclear attacks (same target) with a B-2 and B-83 (gravity) bombs. All I can say is don't try this at home using a strike mission. As the B-2 approached the IP, the aircraft dropped down to about 5000 AGL, despite being instructed to maintain military throttle and max altitude. To add insult to injury, the plane, after dropping the bomb (which is parachute retarded) circled around at low level watching for the bomb to hit. Result: one fried B-2 - and the B-83 missed the SSM TEL by 150 ft, so it survived. Right. I don't think a 1.2MT nuke miss of 150 feet changes much. I suspect the algorithm that calculates strike aircraft behavior is designed to only handle conventional weapon attacks - not nuclear.

Leaving this to Rag.
Finally I tried some Trident missle strikes. The MIRV sequence working was a pleasant surprise, the "malfunctioning" of as many as half of the MIRV warheads was rather odd.
It does sound odd. Our reliability figures for W76 and W88 are 80% and 85% respectively. Unless you were really unlucky, the working percentages should float around that mark. Again a (pre-problem) save would help.
The warheads getting fried by an EMP pulse was another oddity. EMP, usually only affects non-hardened systems, certainly not MIRV warheads.
Yes and no.

One of the things that a nuclear detonation releases is a high-energy neutron flux, at a relatively short distance (this BTW is the basis of the "enhanced radiation warhead" aka "neutron bomb"). RVs are hardened against it (partially because nuclear-tipped ABMs/AAMs use it as their primary kill mechanism) but they are still vulnerable to it at up to about 1-1.5nm IIRC, which is why fracticide is a real headache when allocating RVs on closely-grouped targets. (If you look closely when a MIRV bus begins deploying RVs, you will notice that the targeting AI prefers targets farther out from the primary [within the footprint constraints] rather than the nearest ones, for this very reason).

Until now we used the existing EMP wave as a placeholder for this neutron effect, but it is a rather overkill as you point out. Replaced it in Build 820 with a "proper" short-range neutron wave; you still have to worry about detonations close-by (either from ABMs or from "friendly" warheads going off) but you should no longer get distant effects.
The other oddity was the warhead missing the target by 300 feet, causing a miss! On an above ground SSM TEL no less!
Did it destroy the TEL regardless? Most anti-surface weapons in Command have some area effect (either purpose-built area-effect weapons like nukes, clusters, FAE, frags, airbursts etc. or point-impact HE ones) so even if they nominally miss the target there is a fair chance of damage depending on miss distance. (The message log is telling you that Nuke-1 missed by x meters and right after that Target-1 received a freaking huge blast wave and was wiped out; it doesn't tell you that said blast wave was caused by Nuke-1 going off). Again a pre-detonation save would help a lot.

Thanks.
peterc100248
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:37 pm

RE: Odd Behavior

Post by peterc100248 »

Thanks for the responses.

I have been unable to replicate the issue with SSM TELs. I did change to 819, so ??? If I can get it to repeat, I'll send you a pre-occurrence save. I did go the other way, weapon-wise and determined that usually 12 Hellfires or 6 Mavericks were needed (This while using 816). I do know that in Gulf War 1, the problem in SCUD hunting wasn't the toughness of the target, but the difficulty in finding it in the first place. Once found, all large missile systems were easy to kill.

I worked for many years as a guidance system design engineer on contract with a major supplier for the defense industry before retiring. Being forever bound by NDAs, I cannot discuss much, except in vague terms about MIRVs. I can say this. No one tells the truth about reliability - ever. Were I modelling the performance of real-world systems, I would go with a bit higher figures. CEP is another of those issues never truthfully discussed.

I can say that the technology for pointing the Hubble Space Telescope is impressive. Take a look at it's "CEP."

EMP is not a problem for a vehicle which travels in the environment a MIRV warhead moves in for most of its flight. EMP is pretty well understood and relatively easy to shield out. Today, ABM systems must achieve kinetic impact. Nobody loads nukes on interceptor missiles anymore because EMP was only effective on early ICBM technology. Today you need a hard kill - impact.

One simple truth about nukes. No one ever gives accurate information.

On the nuke missing the TEL. I discovered that the TEL was destroyed by the blast, but the symbol was still there. Now that I've changed to 819, I cannot reproduce that either. If I see it again, and its repeatable, I'll do a pre-save of that also.

All in all, a great job - far better than anything else. Build 819 seems to have dealt with some of the issues I raised. The only hard "bug" I'm seeing relates to the strike mission aircraft circling over the target, waiting for a missile or bomb to impact. There is probably a work around. I just haven't had time to figure it out.
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