New retraet rules are no treat

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sillyflower
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by sillyflower »

ORIGINAL: Pelton

If you take a little time and check the AAR's which you clearly have not you will see average German players losing to Good Russian players.

Pelton vs Choas

tm.asp?m=3871507

Pelton vs BrianG
tm.asp?m=3822946

Mr P: Are you just an average German player then???????????
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charlie0311
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by charlie0311 »

Perhaps current games should not be updated until the next patch is better understood?
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Manstein63
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by Manstein63 »

It's the Law of Unintended Consequences 1.08.08 came out to adjust problems that came with .07 & .09 will fix perceived problems with .08 then we will probably get a .10 patch to correct something in .09. The problem is that everyone has a different opinion as to what is balanced and they will like one aspect of a patch while being very disgruntled with another part. It might be an idea to put forward the change log prior to the patch being released that way you will be able to see what is planed and comment on it before it is released.
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Cerion
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by Cerion »

It's the Law of Unintended Consequences 1.08.08 came out to adjust problems that came with .07 & .09 will fix perceived problems with .08 then we will probably get a .10 patch to correct something in .09. The problem is that everyone has a different opinion as to what is balanced and they will like one aspect of a patch while being very disgruntled with another part. It might be an idea to put forward the change log prior to the patch being released that way you will be able to see what is planed and comment on it before it is released.
Manstein63

+1. Logical
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morvael
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by morvael »

1.08.00, .05 and .08 are "big" patches that bring a lot of changes. The rest are smaller, balancing patches. So they are not always equal and not always the next one is meant to fix perceived problems with previous patch.
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Manstein63
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by Manstein63 »

ORIGINAL: morvael

1.08.00, .05 and .08 are "big" patches that bring a lot of changes. The rest are smaller, balancing patches. So they are not always equal and not always the next one is meant to fix perceived problems with previous patch.

Agreed. I think you have done a fantastic job with all the time & effort that you put in to improving this game. [&o][&o][&o][&o]. All I am trying to say is that you will never be able to please everyone.
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Manstein63

It's the Law of Unintended Consequences 1.08.08 came out to adjust problems that came with .07 & .09 will fix perceived problems with .08 then we will probably get a .10 patch to correct something in .09. The problem is that everyone has a different opinion as to what is balanced and they will like one aspect of a patch while being very disgruntled with another part. It might be an idea to put forward the change log prior to the patch being released that way you will be able to see what is planed and comment on it before it is released.
Manstein63

and that is of course really nice and wonderful. But I have a game that got to March 1944 and has been totally ruined by this patch. This is not a matter of 'balance' its a matter of putting out a (too be generous) poorly tested patch that fundamentally altered the game dynamics.

The change logs don't help one bit in interpreting how the game will then play.

More to point, and I have been trying to say this for the last six months, does anyone, anymore actually have a clue what the rules are?
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Michael T
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by Michael T »

Wait, so Pelton finally achieved mind control over Morvael et al.?

This I love [:D]

Remember these are beta's.

Maybe stick to official patches, or the last 2by3 patch. You have a choice.

Players for years have complained about the combat model and retreat losses. morvael is addressing those things. I guess some players have had it entrenched in there minds that 1:1 losses in combat post 41 was the norm. Guess what, it wasn't.
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by timmyab »

ORIGINAL: loki100
More to point, and I have been trying to say this for the last six months, does anyone, anymore actually have a clue what the rules are?
lol I never did to be honest. I just started shoving counters around and learned as I went along. Five years later and I'm still doing the same thing :)
Only recently I lost Leningrad because I didn't know one of the basic rules that's been in the game from day one [:D]

Hopefully you wont stay away for too long. Your AARs are the best I've read on here.
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Manstein63
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RE: New retreat rules are no treat

Post by Manstein63 »

[/quote]

This is not a matter of 'balance' its a matter of putting out a (too be generous) poorly tested patch that fundamentally altered the game dynamic

More to point, and I have been trying to say this for the last six months, does anyone, anymore actually have a clue what the rules are?
[/quote]

.08 is a beta patch and we the gamers are the testers, Morvael is just one person who is trying to improve the game as 2by3 are now concentrating on
WitE 2.0 it was a shame that your game was compromised by .08 but you had been saying that you felt that the new patch had unbalanced the game for a while so could you have possibly agreed with your opponent to suspend further play until .09 was released a la Sillyflower & Brian G or carried on with the prior patch.

I only ever gave the rule set a cursory glance as I prefer to learn by doing.

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heliodorus04
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by heliodorus04 »

ORIGINAL: loki100

and that is of course really nice and wonderful. But I have a game that got to March 1944 and has been totally ruined by this patch. This is not a matter of 'balance' its a matter of putting out a (too be generous) poorly tested patch that fundamentally altered the game dynamics.

The change logs don't help one bit in interpreting how the game will then play.

More to point, and I have been trying to say this for the last six months, does anyone, anymore actually have a clue what the rules are?
"Poorly tested patch" is not generous. It's spiteful.

I sympathize with your problem immensely, because it happened to me,
but in the end, you made choices that took you to the point of no return.

Considering how far your game progressed, and the law of unintended consequences, it might serve to forewarn others - if you have a great game a long way down the progression, unexpected patch problems should be carefully considered.
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loki100
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Michael T
...

Remember these are beta's.

Maybe stick to official patches, or the last 2by3 patch. You have a choice.

Players for years have complained about the combat model and retreat losses. morvael is addressing those things. I guess some players have had it entrenched in there minds that 1:1 losses in combat post 41 was the norm. Guess what, it wasn't.

I realise that you will never bother to actually read what I've written but I am not arguing for 1-1 losses, I am not arguing that the German Pzr formations were anything but extremely effective to almost the end of the war.

What the patch has done is to allow the Pzrs to build up their strength. In this game, that means from late 1943 to spring 1944 they have gone from around 12-20 cv to 16-48 cv. Now that is, I really do believe, pretty unrealistic. But has a major impact on the game?

Equally as above the 'don't use the patches line' is not really valid. Each patch has really valuable changes - I wouldn't want to deny a German player in the late game the gains of better allocation of resources from pool to formations.
ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Wait, so Pelton finally achieved mind control over Morvael et al.?

No but he is the main tester. By his own account he concentrates on the first seven turns and from the German side. I'm sure if he found an accidental pro-Soviet change he'd report it. Those who put together the changes believed the package was pretty neutral - so something went very wrong.

I reckoned that something was wrong after 3 turns of a new PBEM and the ongoing game as I saw the increase in the combat power of the Pzr divisions. I was not sure how fundamental it was - in the first instance a simply initial explanation was my opponent was just managing his offensive in a very effective way. In the second I thought it might have been a one-off inflation of strength back to where it should have been (better use of the pools etc).

There is little point in rehearsing this. As is clear I'm very fed up. This will probably be my last post in the WiTE forum. I'm sure that some people will be very happy about that,
BrianG
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by BrianG »

I have seen retreat now v silly in first blizzard and now pelton turn 85.

The blizzard retreat is so far from reality as units being dislodged are moving all the guns out successfully.

For blizzard( I say from November thru Feb), we should consider giving the Germans a much higher attrition rate.

Also versus Pelton his high morale units are losing almost nothing additional under a retreat. Way to morale lenient.


Last: I still think the retreat calculation is not correct and I even think I've seen a reduction of total casualties after the retreat v just before the retreat.
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RKhan
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by RKhan »

ORIGINAL: loki100

There is little point in rehearsing this. As is clear I'm very fed up. This will probably be my last post in the WiTE forum. I'm sure that some people will be very happy about that,

Not happy -> [:(]
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ericv
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by ericv »

ORIGINAL: RKhan

ORIGINAL: loki100

There is little point in rehearsing this. As is clear I'm very fed up. This will probably be my last post in the WiTE forum. I'm sure that some people will be very happy about that,

Not happy -> [:(]

neither am I.

ericv
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by ericv »

ORIGINAL: loki100

I realise that you will never bother to actually read what I've written but I am not arguing for 1-1 losses, I am not arguing that the German Pzr formations were anything but extremely effective to almost the end of the war.

..........

I reckoned that something was wrong after 3 turns of a new PBEM and the ongoing game as I saw the increase in the combat power of the Pzr divisions. I was not sure how fundamental it was - in the first instance a simply initial explanation was my opponent was just managing his offensive in a very effective way. In the second I thought it might have been a one-off inflation of strength back to where it should have been (better use of the pools etc).

There is little point in rehearsing this. As is clear I'm very fed up. This will probably be my last post in the WiTE forum. I'm sure that some people will be very happy about that,

From playing against the AI on hard for over 4 years. all German settings 125, all Soviet settings 80, I can only confirm Loki's sentiment and findings. I played through 1.04 to 1.06.. to 1.07.11 and now the latest 0.8 patches.. I always fiddled around a bit, let him capture and destroy my army until september 1941 () and it made for a fun game.

But with the latest patches his tank strength during the end of 1941 and then well into 1944 climbed from 7500 to over 10.0000 and was still climbing. Mobility etc was als not an issue, but with his supply set on 125, that's not different from normal. Not really a problem against an AI, but I wouldn't even contemplate playing against a skilled Human with those numbers.
Overall it did make for a fun game, but nothing like my other games with patchs up to 1.07... felt like a completely different game, a bit of an strange result from just a patch.

I think some of the current AAR's speak for themselves, more than decent players get some very odd results against the overpowered panzer units.


There were two other things I noticed since the .08 patches.
The extreme vulnerability for destruction for soviet artillery regiments. Where they seemed to be nearly impossible to destroy up until 1.07.11, in the latest patch I played until 1945, my artillery regiment losses were staggering (1.08.07), I lost, with no other change in gameplay, a staggering 160 up until october 1941, and that almost tripled. 1000 AP's gone that was really new for me. The last other game I played to the end (1.07...) I really tried to let the german destroy these units, but losses were minimal, I never had to worry about this.

The other thing looked very odd. Playing with unrealistic settings let's the german conquer insane amounts of territory and what I would do if things got out of hand was setting the german morale to 25 and soviet to 400 and with minimal german losses I could rout all his units a couple of hexes back. Just attacking them headon made them rout, no encirclement necessary. This worked through all the patches until 1.08..... Here it no longer works, I just get normal combat results, which is really weird with these morale settings... .
ericv
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by ericv »

ORIGINAL: BrianG

I have seen retreat now v silly in first blizzard and now pelton turn 85.

The blizzard retreat is so far from reality as units being dislodged are moving all the guns out successfully.

For blizzard( I say from November thru Feb), we should consider giving the Germans a much higher attrition rate.

Also versus Pelton his high morale units are losing almost nothing additional under a retreat. Way to morale lenient.


Last: I still think the retreat calculation is not correct and I even think I've seen a reduction of total casualties after the retreat v just before the retreat.
0

last quote. next time I'll make one post :-)

My experiences are the same, german losses in 1941 are minimal at best. They did climb a bit later on in the game, starting in the end of 1942, but the AI doesn't care too much about his morale, so that is to be expected.

It is unplayable and also unrealistic. Somewhere around the internet a free copy can be got of the excellent George M. Nipe Jr's : Last Victory in Russia: The SS-Panzerkorps and Manstein’s Kharkov Counteroffensive – February-March 1943.

Take a look there at the staggering SS-losses. Morale of these units before the battle would have been a 100 I think. :-) My point anyway is that an excellent morale does not enable a soldier to headbutt bullets or artillery rounds back at the enemy .

A bullet kill's all no matter what.
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by mogami »

Hi, The current Beta is the first version of the game I've played. German panzer div attacked across minor river during mud turn and displaced entrenched soviet divs. Then to prove point did it again next turn. (north of Kiev) But now in summer they are just sitting in level 3 forts. German tank numbers are now half of Soviets. (only 2 soviet tank corps are on front. All the brigades have been withdrawn for months.) But this is a Beta test. I push Panzer div back once in a while but not the monsters near Kiev.
4 Panzer Div surrendered during winter 41/42
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
Aurelian
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RE: New retraet rules are no treat

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: ericv

ORIGINAL: RKhan

ORIGINAL: loki100

There is little point in rehearsing this. As is clear I'm very fed up. This will probably be my last post in the WiTE forum. I'm sure that some people will be very happy about that,

Not happy -> [:(]

neither am I.


Me either.
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