ROE - when can a ship shoot down a neutral aircraft

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DarkFib3r
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ROE - when can a ship shoot down a neutral aircraft

Post by DarkFib3r »

I am wondering when it is OK for ships to fire at neutral aircraft?

I played a scenario last night where a pair of neutral A-4s vectored towards my ship and sank it on a bombing run. The scenario instructions stated not to engage unless I was certain that they were hostile. Normally, I wait until the AI determines that they are hostile (i.e. their icons turn red), as this usually means that they have shot at me. However, letting a pair of fighter-bombers overfly your ships doesn't sound like a good policy.

Is there a general rule of thumb on when you should shoot down aircraft that look like they are interested in hurting you? I'm thinking 10nm is probably a reasonable bubble, certainly if the neutrals are armed and vectoring straight towards the ship. But perhaps you need to wait until you see bombs come off the rails until you are authorized to shoot?
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Dysta
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RE: ROE - when can a ship shoot down a neutral aircraft

Post by Dysta »

Simple, return fire only. Set the RoE as TIGHT to neutral target, and your unit will only return fire at neutral targets when they attack first.

Even in real life event occurs such of intrusion like this, most of the time are not going to attack incoming neutral units unless either having extremely bad relationship, or mistaken as hostile by faulty Intel gathering (easily happens at no-fly zones when war happens).
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DarkFib3r
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RE: ROE - when can a ship shoot down a neutral aircraft

Post by DarkFib3r »

Thanks for the feedback.

The scenario I am referring to is "Stand Up", and the ROE is default Inherited TIGHT. The problem was the A-4's dropped their bombs just over the deck; by the time they registered as hostile, the bombs were already on target and the HMS Portland was sinking. But I perceived them as a threat 20nm away when they both turned hot on my ship. I regretted not shooting them down sooner, obviously :-)

I imagine in real life, naval units have an air exclusion zone around them and that they notify trespassers on a guard frequency to divert their course. If two warplanes penetrated this zone and did not respond to hails to divert, I would imagine the captain would authorize warning shots followed by lethal force before the planes could carry out nefarious duties. Given that Command does not simulate communications to trespassing flights (and nor should it), it seems reasonable to blow anything out of the sky that is armed and driving at you within a set range. To try to keep things realistic, I am wondering what that range should be?
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Gunner98
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RE: ROE - when can a ship shoot down a neutral aircraft

Post by Gunner98 »

What your looking for is 'Hostile Act Criteria'. A commander needs to define these criteria and in game that means you use your judgement and take the risk of shooting down a 'non-bad guy'.

These refs are dated but they are of the era when your scenario takes place:

A Canadian definition looking at Ch4 section 2 of :MILITARY TRAINING, VOLUME 17, ALL ARMS AIR DEFENCE

http://cnqzu.com/library/Anarchy%20Fold ... PT-000.pdf

'DEFINITION OF HOSTILE AIRCRAFT/HOSTILE ACT
4. Hostile aircraft and hostile acts are defined by the ADC for the theatre of operations and
are, therefore, copied directly into formation and unit SOPs. They may include the following
examples:
a. an aircraft is recognized as hostile by its identification features; or
b. it commits a hostile act, that is to say:
(1) attacks any friendly unit,
(2) drops paratroops, where aircraft and troops are visually identified as other
than friendly, or
(3) manoeuvres unmistakably into position to attack friendly forces or
facilities.'


US:
Hostile Criteria as outlined in: FM 44-100 US ARMY AIR DEFENSE OPERATIONS 15 June 1995 http://fas.org/spp/starwars/docops/fm44-100/fm441_6.htm

'Hostile criteria are basic rules that assist in the identification of friendly or hostile air platforms. These rules are promulgated by the commanders of unified commands and by other appropriate commanders when so authorized. The commander who establishes hostile criteria parameters may consider the factors of speed, altitude, and heading or other requirements within specified volumes of airspace.'
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mikmykWS
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RE: ROE - when can a ship shoot down a neutral aircraft

Post by mikmykWS »

ORIGINAL: DarkFib3r

Thanks for the feedback.

The scenario I am referring to is "Stand Up", and the ROE is default Inherited TIGHT. The problem was the A-4's dropped their bombs just over the deck; by the time they registered as hostile, the bombs were already on target and the HMS Portland was sinking. But I perceived them as a threat 20nm away when they both turned hot on my ship. I regretted not shooting them down sooner, obviously :-)

I imagine in real life, naval units have an air exclusion zone around them and that they notify trespassers on a guard frequency to divert their course. If two warplanes penetrated this zone and did not respond to hails to divert, I would imagine the captain would authorize warning shots followed by lethal force before the planes could carry out nefarious duties. Given that Command does not simulate communications to trespassing flights (and nor should it), it seems reasonable to blow anything out of the sky that is armed and driving at you within a set range. To try to keep things realistic, I am wondering what that range should be?

Yeah they would and you can do this in game with exclusion zones and WRA's and ROE's.

There likely are real life ROE's commanders need to follow but in your specific case it would probably be by discretion. Particularly if your CAP didn't intercept the aircraft prior to.

M

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Dysta
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RE: ROE - when can a ship shoot down a neutral aircraft

Post by Dysta »

Ultimately it is better suit following the playing country's military doctrines and set of RoEs for realism, but unless it is mentioned in briefing/note that neutral may or may not posting actual threat to your units, it is still the player's freedom to set your own RoE, if it is unlocked.

Return fire only suits most of the circumstances, but if really necessary and certain you can handle the outcome (mission related or not), then take the shot before they poustering more stupidity to you.
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RE: ROE - when can a ship shoot down a neutral aircraft

Post by Chris21wen »

ORIGINAL: Dysta

Simple, return fire only. Set the RoE as TIGHT to neutral target, and your unit will only return fire at neutral targets when they attack first.

Even in real life event occurs such of intrusion like this, most of the time are not going to attack incoming neutral units unless either having extremely bad relationship, or mistaken as hostile by faulty Intel gathering (easily happens at no-fly zones when war happens).

That will cause attacks on all targets. If you have something coming towards and you suspect it's an attack run use the H key to mark as hostile. If they turn out to actually be neutral they will revert back, hopefully before they are fire on. Look at using the H key as a radio message telling them to veer away.
Blas de Lezo
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RE: ROE - when can a ship shoot down a neutral aircraft

Post by Blas de Lezo »

Today's concept of self defense has change to consider an aggression act not only the physical release of a weapon but to include jamming, turning on the FCR radars (even without missile activity) and even specific flight profiles...

Letś say that you are the skipper of the Moskva cruiser and you are patrolling in the easter Mediterranean and suddenly your radar pick up two bogeys at low level maintaining radio silence proceeding "hot"to you and making close to 600 knots.... if you think they are friendlies you are very naive...

You can simulate most of this playing with posture and WRA... a lot of setting giving you as player a lot of possibilities and as designer a lot of flexibilities...

Best
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Dysta
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RE: ROE - when can a ship shoot down a neutral aircraft

Post by Dysta »

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: Dysta

Simple, return fire only. Set the RoE as TIGHT to neutral target, and your unit will only return fire at neutral targets when they attack first.

Even in real life event occurs such of intrusion like this, most of the time are not going to attack incoming neutral units unless either having extremely bad relationship, or mistaken as hostile by faulty Intel gathering (easily happens at no-fly zones when war happens).

That will cause attacks on all targets. If you have something coming towards and you suspect it's an attack run use the H key to mark as hostile. If they turn out to actually be neutral they will revert back, hopefully before they are fire on. Look at using the H key as a radio message telling them to veer away.
Oh, doesn't knew that feature though. While I am playing, the unit will have number indicator to tell me how many missiles are coming toward it. That is the most certain point the target is attacking my unit.

Think again however, I am highly doubt that player's unit will just be casual and ignore them when neutral units nearby had fired a shot, either random misfire, or attacking 3rd side units. A knee-jerking reaction to 'return fire' is still legal to the RoE, even it will lead into uncontrollable outcome.
Vici Supreme
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RE: ROE - when can a ship shoot down a neutral aircraft

Post by Vici Supreme »

ORIGINAL: Blas de Lezo

Today's concept of self defense has change to consider an aggression act not only the physical release of a weapon but to include jamming, turning on the FCR radars (even without missile activity) and even specific flight profiles...
Is jamming considered a hostile action? An aggression for sure but on par with locking your FCR onto something?
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Rory Noonan
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RE: ROE - when can a ship shoot down a neutral aircraft

Post by Rory Noonan »

Depends on context, a bit of comms spoofing or jamming could be considered harassment (or normal between certain parties). Jamming a lone ship in a geopolitical hotspot to the point that it's sensors are ineffective would make the captain and crew exceptionally nervous and could easily lead to a 'misunderstanding'.
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