WitE 2

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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JamesM
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WitE 2

Post by JamesM »

Has work started on WitE 2?

Apart from my question I have been thinking what changes they might need to do from War in the West. The air war model may need to be changed or adapted because strategic bombing from my research hardly played a role on the Eastern front (maybe part from early on and the bombing raids on the Romanian oil fields and some German air raids on Russian Cities), while in WitW it is a very important factor in the air war.

Also the number of administrative points may have to be changed (if the same point cost system is used in WitW) is to reflect the need to constantly create airfields and depots due to the ebb and flow of the front lines.
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Numdydar »

Doubtful since an expansion for WitW is now coming out. I know the map has been updated since they now have a unified map for all of Europe and NA.

But I would not expect to see a new WitE game for at least a year if not longer. Remember Gary is the only one doing the bulk of the programing at 2by3 as well. And there is only so much one person can do [:(]
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Helpless
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Helpless »

Has work started on WitE 2?

Technically yes.
Remember Gary is the only one doing the bulk of the programing at 2by3 as well.

No.
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Blind Sniper »

ORIGINAL: Helpless
Has work started on WitE 2?

Technically yes.
Remember Gary is the only one doing the bulk of the programing at 2by3 as well.

No.

Which is the first game in the pipeline, WitE2 or War in the Europe (or whatever name will be)?

You are one of the others programmers, aren't you?
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Helpless
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Helpless »

Which is the first game in the pipeline, WitE2 or War in the Europe (or whatever name will be)?

We trying to build a system to move in WIE direction where WITE-2 could be a next stop.. since geographically WITE area is also in Europe.
You are one of the others programmers, aren't you?

I spend significant part of my life to do this job.
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charlie0311
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RE: WitE 2

Post by charlie0311 »

How much to buy out Grigsby? New team will emphasize consumer satisfaction.

I offer nothing,.., nothing but tears, suffering, pain, toil, pain (more), and blood.

My idea of a lame little joke. :)
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RedLancer
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RE: WitE 2

Post by RedLancer »

Charlie

We already have what you offer - but if you can provide the money to cover the day job too - that appeals. My lame little joke as the price of breaking friendships isn't monetary and please don't underestimate the importance of that element in this work.

More seriously if you can find a new team that has the dedication to produce games of this ilk then you have my undying admiration. I recognise and appreciate your views on customer satisfaction and offer two slightly divergent views in response (as the answer probably lies somewhere in between). Firstly no-one spends the time and effort developing games of this sort without the intention that players will enjoy the product. Secondly do artists create their work for anyone but themselves and the joy of doing the work itself?

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WitE & WitW Dev
charlie0311
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RE: WitE 2

Post by charlie0311 »

Let's all be friends. Please, please. Will take the subj to PM.

What motivates artists is above my pay grade.
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RedLancer
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RE: WitE 2

Post by RedLancer »

No unfriendliness intended and apologies if that was how you read things. For the record I've never had any issue with your well presented and argued points of view on this forum. I merely tried (clumsily maybe) to highlight that money is perhaps not the only factor with developing these games.
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Blind Sniper »

Thanks for the answers, in the meantime good luck![:)]
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RE: WitE 2

Post by jfk1978 »

Are You also working on a new naval warfare system ?
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RE: WitE 2

Post by JamesM »

I was not expecting this game for a year or 2. However, I started this thread to obtain opinions on the changes in from WitE and WitW to WitE 2.
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RE: WitE 2

Post by beekeeper »

I think all this forum wait it!
wite+witw on one map and ships and more micromanagment =)
Numdydar
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Numdydar »

ORIGINAL: Helpless
Has work started on WitE 2?

Technically yes.
Remember Gary is the only one doing the bulk of the programing at 2by3 as well.

No.

I guess my information is out of date [:(]. I know it used to be that way so I'm glad that has changed [:)]
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cardolan
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RE: WitE 2

Post by cardolan »

My guess is that 2by3 will launch another game to introduce a new naval system (maybe war in the west 41-43 in the Mediterranen sea) then mix land-air-sea in Wite2 and in the end War in Europe.

I think I read something like that from Joel in this forums.

Small studio + lots of balancing and love in the details. For sure will take a few years before WiE so better enjoy the ride.
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Numdydar »

Also the new version of Steel Panthers is in the works now too as the next main release of 2by3. So that may push this out even further.
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RE: WitE 2

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: jamesm

...

Apart from my question I have been thinking what changes they might need to do from War in the West. The air war model may need to be changed or adapted because strategic bombing from my research hardly played a role on the Eastern front (maybe part from early on and the bombing raids on the Romanian oil fields and some German air raids on Russian Cities), while in WitW it is a very important factor in the air war.

Also the number of administrative points may have to be changed (if the same point cost system is used in WitW) is to reflect the need to constantly create airfields and depots due to the ebb and flow of the front lines.

I've been playing a fair bit of WiTW and one thing I've been thinking over is how much/how well does it translate. A key constraint is that even in the France 1944 phase of the war, land combat is small scale compared to the Soviet-German part of WW2.

But its clear that WiTW is the iteration to the system that will end up (possibly, maybe) as WiE so it will affect WiTE2.

I don't think the air war is an issue. Once you get used to it, its a lot more elegant and you can do all that you do in WiTE now (hit the enemy airforce, pre-combat attacks, close combat support etc), just with a lot less micro organisation. I can't see either side in WiTE generating the levels of air interdiction the Western Allies can ... at least not to the very end of the war when Soviet airpower is just another factor battering down the last German defences.

Few other rules worth thinking about.

Concept of combat delay is really good, starts to add some sort of elapsed time concept to the game, but clearly hinders an attacking player. Nothing wrong in that, but there is an issue of game balance that needs to be sorted out ... as in my comment above, so far WiTW has nothing akin to either the German 1941 offensives or the Soviet late war attacks.

Supply system has 3 parts and its elegant, but again will need a lot of care in implementation. You have the challenge of getting supply to a region (and if you use your rails for troop movements you can't shift supply and vice-versa). You use depots to create a supply stock in a given region ... key issues here are the ability to deliver supply to that area and the capacity of the depots. You then, within a given region, set troop priority to draw off that supply.

Oh and you lose cv at a rate of 1% for every 1% missing ammo, so lack of full supply is a real constraint.

All of this takes a huge nerf bat to the current logistics problems in WiTE. There is a real feeling of having to pause to let supplies build up and small scale attacks *because you can* may be pretty silly, you are burning off scarce ammo and fuel that you may want for a real attack later on.

edit - this also makes sense of the Soviet attacks post-Smolensk in late 1941. By making the Germans fight, they stopped/slowed the build up of supplies for Typhoon. So losing attacks, if you are the supply rich side, can be quite effective. It may also mean that players tend to look to end an offensive in good defensible terrain (ie behind a river), simply to deny their opponent the capacity to do this sort of attack.

Done right, it will bring in the pauses that are such a feature of the Soviet-German war.

Some other issues - I find that WiTW plays more slowly, there are a lot more fractional rules (ammo/cv; rail cap) and so on, compared the binary rules in WiTE at the moment. With WiTW this is no big deal, even by late 1944 neither side has a big army, but it does mean that WiTW brought east has significant computer processing challenges. Also movement point costs are more nuanced, in particular with the importance of varying air interdiction levels.
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Peltonx »

I think we will have a better idea how things will work once Torch comes out.

I have played 14 games of WitW and don't see the current system working for WitE 2.0.

The issue is logistics as it makes for a very static game and the same old issue with the combat engine.

Supplies do build up but it takes time which means the defender can build walls of steel, even in late 44 early 45 German defenses cant be broken.
and units simply can't move far enough to pocket anything even vs weak defenses.

This can be fixed IF supplies build up. France is very small area of operations and its next to impossible to get a break through.

I agree WitE 1.0 allows for to liberal supplies, but 2.0 has a very WW I feel to it as supplies and movement are slow aka almost static.


1. Logistics aka a true build up needs to be real.
2. Combat losses really need to be historical. 42-44 4-1 not 2-1. The combat engine needs to be trashed and start over
A combat engine not based on true loses on the ground. but on retreat loses will NEVER work as its Middle Earth and not historical.

Russian loses when they were winning and driving east were 4 to 1 at least not 1 to 1 when Germans retreat.

and yes I have posted historical data supporting this as has Chaos.

Fix the combat engine and tweak logistics and we will have a historical 2.0
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Blind Sniper »

Can a historical WitE 2 be balanced and funny to play?
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RE: WitE 2

Post by JamesM »

It will be interesting to see how fortified zones in urban areas will be treated. In WitW it was almost impossible to take out units fortified in urban areas, while in WitE it is also impossible to hold onto urban areas such as Leningrad even if you have strong divisions in level 3 or 4 fortifications.
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