Finns AFTER Leningrad falls, value of taking Leningrad?

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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rainman2015
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Finns AFTER Leningrad falls, value of taking Leningrad?

Post by rainman2015 »

Hi yall...

Just took Leningrad the first time in a RTL scenario, and thus really read the Finn rules again, and suddenly realized that even AFTER Leningrad falls that, if a Finnish unit moves south of the No Attack Line, they will lose 1 morale point per turn, and the further away the lower the morale can fall to. Yikes, thought that after Leningrad fell that i could use my Finns as i wanted up to the Finnish No MOVE line and no longer worry about the Finnish No Attack line.

So, the question is, how are yall actually using the Finns after Leningrad falls? I really don't want to ruin their great 80-85 morale units just to man say a line along the Volkhov (having them sit there would be 8+ hexes south of the No Attack Line = 65 - 8 or more = morale would eventually drop into the 50s)

I guess you could rotate corps in and out, once they hit say 70 or 75 morale, rotate them back to Finland, but they, of course, would not actually recover their previous 80+ morale, since the Finnish National morale is 70.

So, i don't see how to use them very effectively on the front lines, other than along the Svir, which is exactly where they would have been if Leningrad did not fall.

So, the real point is here that i have been reading about how important it is to take Leningrad to free up the Finns, but i don't see them actually being 'freed up', plus now you have to garrison all those city and urban hexes around Leningrad. Yes, your line is straighter and it is along the Volkhov most likely, but i was thinking that taking Leningrad would give you more advantages. I am still thinking it is important, due to straightening your line and gaining good defensive terrain, taking out the big population, etc, but it just lost a big part of its appeal to me, realizing the limits of the Finns after Leningrad falls.

What am i missing?

Thanks!
Randy
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rainman2015
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RE: Finns AFTER Leningrad falls, value of taking Leningrad?

Post by rainman2015 »

By the way, i searched the forums and could find nothing on this topic, i.e. the use of the Finns AFTER Leningrad falls.

Randy
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Peltonx
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RE: Finns AFTER Leningrad falls, value of taking Leningrad?

Post by Peltonx »

They will NEVER gain back a single point of morale as this has been broken from before release - but I ask Morvael to look into it.

I leave 4 divisions to the north so they have 80 morale.

The rst I move south of Leningrad. Divisions in the front with smaller units in 2nd line in reserve mode.
This will help shorten the lines and you can move the extra units south. Oka north will have divisions in the front and regiments in 2nd line in reserve mode makes it very hard for Stavka to push west before winter 43.

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RE: Finns AFTER Leningrad falls, value of taking Leningrad?

Post by heliodorus04 »

I make one Finnish Army into the northernmost army along the Volkhov.
Yes they will lose morale. But they will not give a single hex, compared to your Heer divisions in the winter having to backtrack. The Finns are the bulwark of the northern defense.
If your Soviet opponent is not careful, the Finns can work a few morale points off by fighting.
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RE: Finns AFTER Leningrad falls, value of taking Leningrad?

Post by Gabriel B. »

afaik they recover morale but painfully slow.

you can use their army hq to field 2 finish armies (24 german divisions ) without one single finish division.
this would free command points .

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RE: Finns AFTER Leningrad falls, value of taking Leningrad?

Post by heliodorus04 »

I never thought of using both Finnish Armies, simply because the second one would have to be stationed below the No-Move line to be of much use, and thus its SUs would lose morale (maybe the answer is to remove the SUs). The first Finnish Army can be stationed above the No-Move line and still give excellent support to Germany's northernmost Corps HQs. However it's mostly out of range to support with SUs anyway... Hmm...
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rainman2015
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RE: Finns AFTER Leningrad falls, value of taking Leningrad?

Post by rainman2015 »

Sounds like yall are not rotating divisions back and forth from the front, say along the Volkhov, back above the No Attack Line once they hit a threshold of say 70 morale (National morale). Seems like you could use half the Finnish army at the front, and half in Finland (or something close to that) in a rotating way and not let the morale of any unit ever drop below 70 or so.

But, it sounds like yall must be allowing the morale to drop all the way into the low to mid 50s if you just leave them stationed along the front lines and don't rotate them back in time. Is that the way yall are doing it? Won't they really be much less effective once their morale is all the way down into the 50s? I mean now you are getting into Hungarian land.

Randy
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RE: Finns AFTER Leningrad falls, value of taking Leningrad?

Post by rainman2015 »

Also, what objectives and/or front lines are yall shooting for once Leningrad falls?

I need to relook at my map once i get home from work, but i didn't see much purpose in pushing the Finns past the Svir line anyway, across which they get to keep their morale. I mean, it is not like there are any factories or population centers up there.

Yet, in AARs, i know i have seen the Axis lines further to the east and south than along the Svir and Volkhov rivers. What is the real point of pushing past that? It is not like you going to launch the northern part of the assault on Moscow from up there either.

I did see a possible really good defensive line if you pushed all the way to Tihkvin (sp?) and the river that runs north/south there (again, at work, so no map), plus you can then link up with a line that runs thru the Valdai Hills if you have been able to take them, plus all the swamps west of Tihkvin. That defensive line seemed worthwhile to go after, but only for defensive purposes.

Realize i have never gotten past taking Leningrad until now in a game, so a complete newbie to this aspect of the game...

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RE: Finns AFTER Leningrad falls, value of taking Leningrad?

Post by heliodorus04 »

I do not rotate divisions of Finns below the No-Move line. It takes 2 turns, during blizzard, to move from the Volkhov to north of the No-Move line. It's not worth it on trucks. If you start moving the Finns 1 or 2 turns before blizzard starts, and they get out of the area 1 or 2 turns into March 42, I think that adds to around 15 morale points. That's a lot. But it can't be helped, and you don't need the Finns for anything more important for the rest of the war. By the time the Soviet player is ready to knock Finland out of the war.

I don't dink around with the Karelian peninsula much. You can't get passive rail to a spot where it does any good until summer of 1942, so to conduct offensive operations over there is to burn through trucks.

I insist on having the west bank of the Volkhov. What happens east of the Volkhov depends on where the lines are south and east (or west) of Lake Peipus and the Valdai hills. Ideally, I can hold the rail line from the Volkhov down southeast to Bologoi, but I only try to hold that if I can keep the Soviets away by 1 hex, enabling rail supply to actuallyy do some good.

I personally put a lot of emphasis on Torzhok and Kalinin because if you can grab those before Blizzard, odds are your Army Group North is going to have an easy winter falling back slowly to the Valdai hills.
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RE: Finns AFTER Leningrad falls, value of taking Leningrad?

Post by rainman2015 »

OK, so you just have to live with the Finns dropping into the mid-50 range morale then? Wow, that hurts!

As to something worthwhile taking east of the Volkhov, looks like the line of the Svir (causing no morale loss), then down along the Syas and either into the Valdai or over into Kalinin (using various rivers like the Msta, etc) are worthwhile lines to take just for defensive purposes, and Kalinin area for left flank of Moscow also. Not that taking all that would be worth the losses, would depend i suppose on the game, but those are a reason to go past the Volkhov, and using the Finns along the Northern most part of that line (even accepting their falling into the 50s morale-wise for some of their divisions) would be a big help for sure.

What kind of CVs do they have once they hit their low end of mid 50s (basing mid 50s on being 10 hexes from the No Attack Line and not rotating back in time to prevent the fall all the way to 55 morale)?

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RE: Finns AFTER Leningrad falls, value of taking Leningrad?

Post by heliodorus04 »

If you start at 80 and lost 15 points, what's your morale? You are discouraging yourself with your own maths.

What's the German morale after they've been attacked every turn by Soviets in Blizzard?

The combat value of a Finn with about 80 percent TOE and (80-15) morale is about 5-6.
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RE: Finns AFTER Leningrad falls, value of taking Leningrad?

Post by rainman2015 »

Not correct. Rule says that the base morale is 65 - however many hexes you are south of the No Attack Line. In other words, the low threshold which your morale can eventually FALL to is 65 - say 10+ hexes south = 55 or less, so that 80 morale would fall all the way down to 55 eventually IF you didn't pull them back to above the No Attack Line before they fell all the way down to 55ish. Ouch! That is almost Hungarian.

Here is the rule:

Finnish morale will drop by one each turn they are south of the no attack line if their morale is above the Finnish Morale Threshold. The threshold is 65 if one hex over the line, and is reduced by one for each additional hex south of the line. There is also an additional cumulative morale reduction of one point for each hex row east of hex row X100 for Finnish units.

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RE: Finns AFTER Leningrad falls, value of taking Leningrad?

Post by Peltonx »

bro if you don't do good in 41 and 42 your toast, your 80 morale Finnish divisions will get smoked by stacks of 50+ CV Rifle Corps with 10,000 guns and 1000's of sappers.

So use every single thing you have to cripple Russia in 42 or you will get CRUSHED like so many others.

Risk everything and try to win or draw or get steam rolled an lose in 44.

Way to many people think like accountants and lose be they German or Russian.



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rainman2015
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RE: Finns AFTER Leningrad falls, value of taking Leningrad?

Post by rainman2015 »

Got it. Good advice.

Randy
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