Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship

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Primarchx
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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship

Post by Primarchx »

A quick update - I mention firing arc for the guns. This is not an issue outside of 5nm as Command assumes you are maneuvering to get weapons on target outside that range. Inside 5nm it IS an issue, though, and there's not much time to correct if you don't plan for it. So I typically fight as though firing arcs matter with guns at any range.
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hellfish6
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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship

Post by hellfish6 »

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Hello,

Chris' excellent primer reminded us that so far we have not been displaying the compatibility of director sensors for mounts and weapons on the DB viewer, even though it is a critical element (and explains all those "no sensors available to guide this weapon" messages in the midst of close combat).

So we set out to rectify this. This is a preview from Build 641, showing the weaponry for the early Ticonderogas:


Hopefully this clarifies which sensor can direct/guide what mount/weapon.

Thanks!

That's great - hope it wasn't too big of a pain in the ass to go through the whole DB to do that. Does that info also come into play when you're adding sensors/mounts to platforms in the editor?
wheecarm
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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship

Post by wheecarm »

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Hello,

Chris' excellent primer reminded us that so far we have not been displaying the compatibility of director sensors for mounts and weapons on the DB viewer, even though it is a critical element (and explains all those "no sensors available to guide this weapon" messages in the midst of close combat).

So we set out to rectify this. This is a preview from Build 641, showing the weaponry for the early Ticonderogas:

Hopefully this clarifies which sensor can direct/guide what mount/weapon.

Thanks!

Fantastic!
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JRyan
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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship

Post by JRyan »

ORIGINAL: hellfish6

I don't get into gunfights with anything less than a heavy cruiser.

Doing otherwise is just impolite.


Now that is funny!
But By Grace Go I.......
water4fuel
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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship

Post by water4fuel »

Hi PrimarchX !! Thanks for your post concerning firing-arcs for gun when going into battle. Looking at the Wiki DB3000 specs, I see where most guns are effective from 0 nm to x nm down range, depending on the gun. I also see where some missiles have a beginning effective distance 4 or 5 nm downrange... is this what you are meaning by the firing arcs for guns ? If not, could you give the firing - arc gun range for a Arleigh Burke class, or a Knox class vessel please ? Thanks ever so much....
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Sakai007
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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship

Post by Sakai007 »

The Firing Arc is which direction the gun is capable of shooting from it's mount. A gun mounted on the bow of a ship can obviously shoot forward, left and right. It can't fire towards the aft end because the ship superstructure is in the way. So in total most bow weapons have an arc of 270 degrees. A CIWS mount on the side of a ship may have a fire arc only to that side. That is what he means by the firing arcs.
When in Doubt, Charlie out!!
water4fuel
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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship

Post by water4fuel »

Sakai007 - Thanks ever so much for this answer !! I really appreciated your explanation. [:)]
p1t1o
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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship

Post by p1t1o »

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

ORIGINAL: gbethel

CEP is calculated in meters. Not sure how the devs did it but that is how it is in RL...etc.

I'd like to know how CEP is figured in the game. Typically CEP is a radius into which 50% of rounds will fall, so the other 50% fall outside that.

When CEP is given as a percentage in the DB I assume that...etc.

I'd like to know more about this too, it is pretty important - why is CEP quoted as a percentage?

It makes no sense as a percentage - what does say, 10% CEP mean?

If CEP is not being reported in units of distance, then it is not CEP being measured, but some other parameter.

Knowing what this other parameter is, and how it is calculated, would go a long way in assessing the capabilities of your units...
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Gunner98
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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship

Post by Gunner98 »

I’m curious on this one as well. From my experience, CEP is used for rockets, bombs and missiles where the direction of error is difficult to predict. With guns, PER (Probably Error in Range) is usually used as the error in Bearing (azimuth if you’re American) or deflection is quite small. Therefore with guns the error causes a predictable ellipse similar to a machine-gun’s beaten zone.

The US Army’s FM6-40 Chapter 3 gives a good explanation at para 3-5 to 3-9 here.

Essentially, once you establish what one PER equals: Than – 50% of all rounds will fall within 2xPER; 82% within 4xPER; and 99% within 8xPER (actually from memory its 99.93% as 7 out of every 10,000 rounds are way out...)

PER can vary considerably with range, gun quality and propellant, but range bands can usually be interpolated for easy use.

Deflection error is not a real issue as it is small and easily measured (and therefore corrected) either visually, by radar or acoustic sensors.

PER calculations get messy with Rocket assisted projectiles so a straight CEP is probably best in that case. The same goes for precision munitions.

Most of my experience is on Tara Firma but I believe naval gunnery uses the same principles.

Although gun fights in game are quite fun, I do find the fall of shot somewhat unpredictable and a bit frustrating – not a real biggie but something that could eventually be fixed. If PER were used for guns vice CEP some of this randomness might be removed.

Am not sure if this has been brought up before but it may be worth a look. If it has already been looked at and dismissed, I’ll stand down. If it’s something that may be in the future, I might be able to help with a bit of the theory – I used to know a few things about this stuff

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magi
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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship

Post by magi »

Interesting.....
mikmykWS
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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship

Post by mikmykWS »

Added this to our things to look at.

Mike
JuliasW
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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship

Post by JuliasW »

So I am a newbie, and tried the First Contact(1957) naval scenario where the Norwegians engage with a pack of MTBs: Torpedo Boats against similar Russian Torpedo Boats. After a bit of patrol, I get into an engagement. But I have real problems directing my small MTB against the enemy, once they go into Engage Offensive mode. Basically I lose control, and my MTBs appear to simply 'run away' from the enemy after a few gun shots (with gun preferred rather than torpedo shots against highly manoeuvrable MTBs). I cannot get them to be into a continuous gun engagement. The range is only a few nm. Instead my units seem to run, and scatter and not engage, because they are in an Engage Offensive mode, I cannot change their route and engage etc. (Are they trying to get away, some distance, to use torpedo's ?
Dimitris
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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship

Post by Dimitris »

ORIGINAL: JuliasW
So I am a newbie, and tried the First Contact(1957) naval scenario where the Norwegians engage with a pack of MTBs: Torpedo Boats against similar Russian Torpedo Boats. After a bit of patrol, I get into an engagement. But I have real problems directing my small MTB against the enemy, once they go into Engage Offensive mode. Basically I lose control, and my MTBs appear to simply 'run away' from the enemy after a few gun shots (with gun preferred rather than torpedo shots against highly manoeuvrable MTBs). I cannot get them to be into a continuous gun engagement. The range is only a few nm. Instead my units seem to run, and scatter and not engage, because they are in an Engage Offensive mode, I cannot change their route and engage etc. (Are they trying to get away, some distance, to use torpedo's ?

I would guess that they are trying to maintain standoff (ie. stay within weapon distance from the enemy while keeping themselves out of the enemy's weapons).

1) You can force your vessels to strictly obey your course/speed orders by changing the "ignore plotted course while attacking" setting (under the "Attack" menu in Unit Orders).

2) If you don't like the "maintain standoff" behavior, you can disable it in the Doctrine --> General panel.
JuliasW
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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship

Post by JuliasW »

Cool, Thanks for those insights.
I can see I will have to spend some time studying more of details under Unit Orders and Attack options.
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