Towed array sonar...?

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magi
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Towed array sonar...?

Post by magi »

How is Towed sonar array sonar modeled in command……

Wiki quote
"Effective use of the towed array system requires a vessel to maintain a straight, level course over a data sampling interval. Maneuvering, or changing course, disturbs the array and interrupts the sampled data stream. These periods of instability are closely tested during sea trials and known by the crew's officers and enlisted sonar experts. Modern systems compensate by constantly self-measuring the relative positions of the array, element to element, reporting back data that can be automatically corrected for curvatures by computers as part of the beam forming math processing.

A ship must also limit its overall top speed when while a towed array is deployed. Hydrodynamic drag increases as a square function of velocity, and could tear the cable or damage its mooring hardware. The array could also be damaged by contact with the seafloor or if the vessel operates astern propulsion, or can even be damaged if it bends too tightly."

Is any of this modeled.....
magi
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by magi »

I read the line item on sonar in mega facs… But it doesn't give really much information… Other than I realize now it is automatically deployed…
I think it would be a nice feature to be able to manually deploy retract towed sonar array.....
Dimitris
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by Dimitris »

ORIGINAL: magi
I think it would be a nice feature to be able to manually deploy retract towed sonar array.....

Why? What would be the gameplay benefit?
mhemh
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by mhemh »

A ship must also limit its overall top speed when while a towed array is deployed.
I think it can be added.
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Primarchx
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by Primarchx »

Sure, just have the towed array effective at or under a given speed. No need to clutter the game with deploy/retract commands for certain ships.
Hongjian
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by Hongjian »

Actually, how can I use Variable Depth Sonars in Command? How can I manually put them to use and adjust their depth? I felt that their range is too low to be useful in command, and I assummed that it was because they always stay in the shallow depths, along with the similiarily ranged bow-mounted sonars.

Sorry for hijacking this thread like this, but I couldnt find anything after searching the forums.
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TonyAAA
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by TonyAAA »

ORIGINAL: Sunburn
ORIGINAL: magi
I think it would be a nice feature to be able to manually deploy retract towed sonar array.....

Why? What would be the gameplay benefit?

Nothing, until Command models going to high/flank speed as destructive to a deployed towed array.

Since you can accelerate much faster than you can safely retract a cable several KM long, players might want the choice of being forced to wait (say, after detecting a torpedo) while the cable retracts before they run, or immediately go to flank speed and likely suffer array damage as a result.
magi
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by magi »

Honestly I believe sunburn is correct… Manually deploying really wouldn't have much effect on anything… But modeling some of the more critical aspect of using towed array I think would be useful as being more realistic….
I bet they would just let it go if things got really bad… You wouldn't risk it ship and crew for sonar Array..... I wonder if they are retrievable….?
magi
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by magi »

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

Actually, how can I use Variable Depth Sonars in Command? How can I manually put them to use and adjust their depth? I felt that their range is too low to be useful in command, and I assummed that it was because they always stay in the shallow depths, along with the similiarily ranged bow-mounted sonars.

Sorry for hijacking this thread like this, but I couldnt find anything after searching the forums.

Hongjian...... You have not hijack this thread… My question was about the modeling of Towed array sonar in general… It is a very viable question and I was wondering about these issues myself… With the sub you can be above the layer or in the layer and with variable depth sonar monitor below the layer.... So I think it's reasonable to wonder how this is happening in command… or if it's modeled in at all…
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Marder
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by Marder »

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

... No need to clutter the game with deploy/retract commands for certain ships.

+1
deepdive
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by deepdive »

TAS should only be deployed in ASW mission where you have to "tick a box" to employ TAS.

TAS would never be used if there is any reason for hard manouvering, by the ship or sub.

Bjørn
Hongjian
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by Hongjian »

ORIGINAL: magi
ORIGINAL: Hongjian

Actually, how can I use Variable Depth Sonars in Command? How can I manually put them to use and adjust their depth? I felt that their range is too low to be useful in command, and I assummed that it was because they always stay in the shallow depths, along with the similiarily ranged bow-mounted sonars.

Sorry for hijacking this thread like this, but I couldnt find anything after searching the forums.

Hongjian...... You have not hijack this thread… My question was about the modeling of Towed array sonar in general… It is a very viable question and I was wondering about these issues myself… With the sub you can be above the layer or in the layer and with variable depth sonar monitor below the layer.... So I think it's reasonable to wonder how this is happening in command… or if it's modeled in at all…

So, as the things are now; a newer ship having VDS is basically a downgrade compared to an older one with TASS?

I think the VDS mechanic really has to be modeled in the game.
Dimitris
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by Dimitris »

ORIGINAL: Hongjian
Actually, how can I use Variable Depth Sonars in Command? How can I manually put them to use and adjust their depth? I felt that their range is too low to be useful in command, and I assummed that it was because they always stay in the shallow depths, along with the similiarily ranged bow-mounted sonars.

Sorry for hijacking this thread like this, but I couldnt find anything after searching the forums.

As we explain in the manual, shipborne VDS and towed array sonars as modelled as always residing just under the layer, on the "deep sound channel" area. This reduces their effectiveness against over-layer subs but maximizes their effects against targets under the layer.
Dimitris
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by Dimitris »

ORIGINAL: Hongjian
Actually, how can I use Variable Depth Sonars in Command? How can I manually put them to use and adjust their depth?
If you are using them from a ship, they always hang just under the thermal layer. If you are using them from a submarine, their position relative to the layer depends on the depth of the submarine. See also the relevant section ont he manual.
I felt that their range is too low to be useful in command, and I assummed that it was because they always stay in the shallow depths, along with the similiarily ranged bow-mounted sonars.
A faulty assumption.
Dimitris
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by Dimitris »

ORIGINAL: magi
ORIGINAL: Hongjian

Actually, how can I use Variable Depth Sonars in Command? How can I manually put them to use and adjust their depth? I felt that their range is too low to be useful in command, and I assummed that it was because they always stay in the shallow depths, along with the similiarily ranged bow-mounted sonars.

Sorry for hijacking this thread like this, but I couldnt find anything after searching the forums.

Hongjian...... You have not hijack this thread… My question was about the modeling of Towed array sonar in general… It is a very viable question and I was wondering about these issues myself… With the sub you can be above the layer or in the layer and with variable depth sonar monitor below the layer.... So I think it's reasonable to wonder how this is happening in command… or if it's modeled in at all…

Did you read the manual?
Dimitris
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by Dimitris »

ORIGINAL: Hongjian
So, as the things are now; a newer ship having VDS is basically a downgrade compared to an older one with TASS?
No. Different system types, different sensitivities per system etc.
I think the VDS mechanic really has to be modeled in the game.
What "VDS mechanic"? The primary point of having a VDS is to put an active-capable sonar dome under the layer. We model that already. See the manual.
Hongjian
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by Hongjian »

Thank you, this is all I wanted to know.

I guess I have overread that part in the manual.

Also, is the range of 8 nautical miles correct? Because I thought that a sonar that is beneath the layer would have longer passive detection range... Thank you.
thewood1
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by thewood1 »

So, I am going ask a question to certain types of people on this forum...why so aggressive in your questioning of the game and the developers?

Instead of a nice passive..."Hey I was wondering where I can find information on "real-life function" XYZ and how its accounted for or abstracted in the game."

As comparison, we get..."So, as the things are now; a newer ship having VDS is basically a downgrade compared to an older one with TASS? I think the VDS mechanic really has to be modeled in the game." A pretty provocative way of basically asking the same type of question.

I mean these devs have shown incredible patience in answer both useful and obtuse questions. They built an incredibly detailed game/simulation from scratch. They have been more responsive in fixing issues and releasing rapid fixes than any game developer I can think of.

Some advice on the process to follow...do a search in the manual on the topic...search the forum...don't assume other players are official sources of info...and then just ask the question without an attitude that you are trying to show up the devs. I think that process would make everyone's life a little easier.

This game is not for everyone. It is complicated, built by people who know what they are doing, played by a lot of people with real-life experience, and is VERY hard to master. That search function is great tool for not wasting development time.
You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes
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Primarchx
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by Primarchx »

Spot on, wood.

We all come from different backgrounds and experience. Command provides very high systems systems fidelity, but it's not perfect nor should we expect it to be so. There are necessary trade offs, implemented for many valid reasons. One of our jobs as players is to relate our experiences and observations to the devs in a constructive way and moderate our expectations based on the fact that Command is indeed a game.

My experience, and I've been involved in one way or another here for a couple of years now, is that the devs do hear and act on our feedback. This game has changed in huge ways since V1.0 was released, with frequent updates and amazing response to player requests. Unlike nearly any other game I've played in recent times, the developer support for Command is as strong today as it was the day it was released, and that's a very special thing.

My advise would be to keep bringing your observations, experience and suggestions to the fore. But do so in a respectful and collaborative way.

Hongjian
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RE: Towed array sonar...?

Post by Hongjian »

I didnt meant to be provocative with my question, so I apologize if it sounded like it was.

On the other hand, it is not that we are 'playing' a freeware game (far from that, considering the price). I bought this software the moment it came out and supported it ever since by getting others to buy it as well.
If a simple question about gameplay mechanics, no matter how ignorant on my part, cant be received without being deemed provocative in some way, then I am very sorry again. Sorry in more than one way.

I'm out.

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