Interested in buying but...

Gary Grigsby’s War in the West 1943-45 is the most ambitious and detailed computer wargame on the Western Front of World War II ever made. Starting with the Summer 1943 invasions of Sicily and Italy and proceeding through the invasions of France and the drive into Germany, War in the West brings you all the Allied campaigns in Western Europe and the capability to re-fight the Western Front according to your plan.

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raventhefuhrer
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Interested in buying but...

Post by raventhefuhrer »

Because the game costs so much! I know it's probably impolite to talk about a company's pricing points, but it's really holding me back right now. I was wondering if there's any sort of demo I could take a look at?

Or maybe some insight into why the game is so pricey, or why it's worth it to buy?
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by JocMeister »

The cost depends on how you look at it. When you divide the price into the number hours spent with the game I bet most of Matrix games will turn out to be the cheapest on the market.

A "normal" AAA game is around 50-70 Euro and normally contains 30-50 hours of game time. AE cost me something like 70 Euro but I probably spent 5000 hours on it. While I won´t spend THAT much time with WitW I´ll probably spend a couple of 100 during the coming years. Not much money for each hour. [:)]

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76mm
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by 76mm »

As JocMeister suggested, assuming you like the game and play it accordingly, the price should be a trivial consideration--playing the game will be one of the cheapest forms of entertainment out there...

While of course you don't want to pay $94 for a game that will sit on the shelf, between the AARs and forum posts, you should be able to determine whether you'll like it, although of course a demo would certainly help (and you would think would certainly help sell expensive games...).

My guess is that the game is so expensive in part because of the expense of creating the map, which from the sounds of it required professional help and is not a simple cut-and-paste from Google maps!
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Qwixt
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by Qwixt »

This topic comes up quite a bit here. I think Matrix feels that AARs and gameplay videos are better than demos for them due to various reasons. As far as price goes, the games here do not get discounted much or often. So if you want a lower price you have to patiently wait for a sale. Generally speaking, Matrix doesn't put new games on sale till long after release. The biggest sale is around this time every year. I have literally watch games for years while deciding on whether to get them during the xmas/holiday sale.
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zakblood
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by zakblood »

if you compare it to lets says a xbox one or ps4 game then it's about the same price, or another war game from another maker, also the same price (game used for comparisons) is combat mission Battle for Normandy, plus a few add-ons etc like missions / market garden and some units like a armour pack, all which should have been in the game to start off with, plus you pay for updates and patches, where here they are free :)

so all in all the price while high, is fair also compared to others in its group...

but then again i maybe wrong, i normally am[:D][;)]
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jnpoint
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by jnpoint »

ORIGINAL: raventhefuhrer

Because the game costs so much! I know it's probably impolite to talk about a company's pricing points, but it's really holding me back right now. I was wondering if there's any sort of demo I could take a look at?

Or maybe some insight into why the game is so pricey, or why it's worth it to buy?

Don't wait for a demo, I think it will never come.
According to the price, I'm also on the fence. I hope it's ok to tell, what I think. I'm not at all impressed by the map, it's somehow doll to look at; almost everything is the same shade of green. I would like more colors on the map. On the other hand I think there is a lot of research for such a game, and that could be a reason for a high price. I'm just guessing of course.
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zakblood
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by zakblood »

a bit dull you mean, as doll is for playing with as a child, unless i'm a big kid, oh i am a big kid[:D][;)]

but yes i know what you mean[&o]
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jnpoint
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by jnpoint »

ORIGINAL: zakblood

a bit dull you mean, as doll is for playing with as a child, unless i'm a big kid, oh i am a big kid[:D][;)]

but yes i know what you mean[&o]

Thanks [;)]
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zakblood
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by zakblood »

your welcome, and your English is better than my Danish, as i only speak pastry mostly[:D][;)]
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by Erik Rutins »

Here's what I posted in another thread:
ORIGINAL: jnpoint
This is just a question, not a complaint! If I buy the game, it will be the most expensive game by far. I normally pay 35-50 Euro for a new games. What makes it so expensive compared to other games?


It's no great mystery - games of this scope, detail and realism are meant for a niche market. There are only so many folks in the world who are interested enough in history, strategy and conflict that they really want games like this. We happen to be some of those folks and we do our best to give gamers like us the best game possible. Gary Grigsby and the 2by3 Games team are pretty unique in the world as far as their ability to take these historical topics at a grand scale and really make them work in a realistic and detailed strategy game.

Unlike many less expensive games on the market, there is really nothing else quite like these games. They are made by master craftsmen like Gary and Joel over many years and the price is set to allow them to continue to make these games that we all love. If you enjoy games like these, the value you get in terms of replayability and hours of fun per dollar is absolutely unmatched and would still be at 2-3 times the price IMHO.

Regards,

- Erik
Erik Rutins
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SigUp
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by SigUp »

I think the biggest issue is really that it's a niche product. I have no idea how many copies a game like WITP-AE, WITE or WITW can sell, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't even manages to crack 10.000 and the base potential of customers for such a product isn't much bigger. It's just no comparison with mainstream products. Companies like EA, Activision or whatever they are called can afford charging lower prices because they are able to sell such gigantic numbers. Modern Warfare 2 for example sold 4.7 million copies in 24 hours in the UK and US alone, easily recouping their development and marketing expenses of over 200 million.
raventhefuhrer
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by raventhefuhrer »

Well, the thing is that there's such a thing as a supply/demand curve. Or in this case, pricing/demand curve.

If your game was priced at $10,000, probably no one would buy it, no matter how good it is. If the game were priced at $1, everyone would buy it - because, why not? It's just a dollar. So, the trick is to find that sweet spot where your product sells at the highest price possible where the most optimum people want to buy it.

Is that sweet spot pricing point $100 (or close to it)? I'm inclined to think not...I'm a huge military history buff. I love Hearts of Iron which, though I'm sure is much different and not as well made, this game does remind me of it. I bought Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm and enjoyed it, and bought it because I could get it on sale for something like $13. So I would buy your game - I would probably love your game. I have friends who I know would buy your game...if it was what I would consider 'affordable'.

I understand one consumer telling you 'lower your dang prices, they're too high' is meaningless, and perhaps contemptible. But, well, I'm a starving college student. And I'm also studying to be an accountant so I'm pretty cheap too. I'm sorry guys, but I really think your games would be less niche if you didn't price them into niche-hood...increasingly I think the 'grand strategy' genre is gaining momentum and being popularized by the likes of Paradox or others.

So long rant short, if you decide to sharply discount your game one day, I'd be happy to play it - it looks great, and I'm sure you put a lot of work into it. I just think your pricing point is made for professional, middle-aged men with lots of disposal income of which I am not [:(]
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PresterJohn001
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by PresterJohn001 »

Its cheaper than a similar scale board game..

A few years ago i was very hesitant about putting the money down for WITP AE, glad i did though because the amount of time i've put into it was absolutely worth it.

Is also worth remembering these games are works of love by the developers and the support and development that continues is amazing.
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by SigUp »

ORIGINAL: raventhefuhrer

Well, the thing is that there's such a thing as a supply/demand curve. Or in this case, pricing/demand curve.

If your game was priced at $10,000, probably no one would buy it, no matter how good it is. If the game were priced at $1, everyone would buy it - because, why not? It's just a dollar. So, the trick is to find that sweet spot where your product sells at the highest price possible where the most optimum people want to buy it.

Is that sweet spot pricing point $100 (or close to it)? I'm inclined to think not...I'm a huge military history buff. I love Hearts of Iron which, though I'm sure is much different and not as well made, this game does remind me of it. I bought Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm and enjoyed it, and bought it because I could get it on sale for something like $13. So I would buy your game - I would probably love your game. I have friends who I know would buy your game...if it was what I would consider 'affordable'.

I understand one consumer telling you 'lower your dang prices, they're too high' is meaningless, and perhaps contemptible. But, well, I'm a starving college student. And I'm also studying to be an accountant so I'm pretty cheap too. I'm sorry guys, but I really think your games would be less niche if you didn't price them into niche-hood...increasingly I think the 'grand strategy' genre is gaining momentum and being popularized by the likes of Paradox or others.

So long rant short, if you decide to sharply discount your game one day, I'd be happy to play it - it looks great, and I'm sure you put a lot of work into it. I just think your pricing point is made for professional, middle-aged men with lots of disposal income of which I am not [:(]
You are way, way, off the mark describing it as "grand strategy". It is much more than that and much more complex. Hearts of Iron can't hold a candlestick to wargames like WITE/WITW/WITP. Not in terms of complexity and not in terms of gameplay.

Also, you are off the mark thinking that it is possible to get wargames out of the niche status by just lowering the price by 30 dollars. How many people out there do you know who are willing to flip through I don't know, 300 pages, worth of manual before getting into a game. That is not even counting the time needed to truly understand the mechanics and become a good player. The people at Matrix aren't stupid. They surely have their own calculations. They know from past experience how broad their potential customer base is and they also know their ability and resources to reach that customer base.
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MrsWargamer
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by MrsWargamer »

I think some people simply want something for nothing.

Game cost me 80 bucks for a download. To complain about it costing 80 bucks though, is just what it is, complaining and being cheap.

I see people spend oodles of bucks on all sorts of things all the time, and really, they just want more more more and more.

If the game was priced at 70 bucks they would complain, and if it was 60 bucks they would complain.

People have gotten too used to crap being shoved on the market on places like Steam and then insisting that the crap and the quality are equal.

Nope, the garbage you bought on Steam for 75% off, was likely only worth that much on it's launch day too.

There was a massive sum of work required to produce this game. If it was my game, I'd be selling it for 80 bucks too.

The same happens in all forms of products though. You can buy junk at Walmart, or you can buy expensive items custom made. The people making the custom made will just look at you odd when you ask how they can justify the price. Cheap junk cars, are not the same as fancy exotic sports cars.

I sometimes wonder how it is though, that some can ask some questions. Gary has been making these games for quite a few years now. His games are a cut above the rest.
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by apoll »

Well, if I can add something to this thread... Where I live, thus game tis just over A$120; obviously one of the more expensive titles I have bought. Yes...it's expensive, no doubt about it. BUT...I jumped in and have not regretted it. This game is really well done; the sir phase alone is a game in of itself, and I love being able to direct grand strategy, as well as get down to the operational level as well. The sheer scope of the game is, in my humble opinion, well worth the entry price. Seriously, I don't have a problem paying a premium for a quality product of this type. Just my view....

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Fintilgin
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by Fintilgin »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
It's no great mystery - games of this scope, detail and realism are meant for a niche market. There are only so many folks in the world who are interested enough in history, strategy and conflict that they really want games like this.

I think this is a self-fulfilling prophecy to some extent. If you price the game so vastly outside what the rest of the market does you're pretty much guaranteeing that no one outside the niche will try it and the niche will never grow.

Honestly, if I were a wargame developer, I'd be very disappointed in this attitude. It seems like you're selling the game short. "Nobody wants to buy this, so lets sell it to our regular customers at a huge markup and not try to entice new players in."

Interface and complexity wise, I DO think War in the Pacific is a hard sell, but both WitE and WitW seem much more approachable and I think they'd do a lot better then you might think on Steam at (roughly) half the price you sell them for here.

It's not about getting "something for free" or "value" or whatever, it's about the fact that on other forums I've posted on and other people I've talked to, I'll see plenty of people who are intrigued and interested in these games but laugh and walk away when they see the price. It frustrates me to think that the wargaming hobby is actively pricing out new 'converts' and (apparently) willfully keeping itself niche. I think there are plenty of people who would be interested in stepping 'up' from games like Panzer Corps or HoI, but asking for so much more money then other games in the market is just shooting yourself in the foot.

:(
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by SigUp »

There actually is a boxed German version of WITE that sells / sold for a regular price out there. I imagine Matrix possesses the sales data on that version and that surely would have given them the info they need on how much potential a lower priced version has. Besides, I kind of fail to get the "whoah-this-is-far-too-expensive" theme. Call of Duty sells for 60$. Where's the outcry or laugh-and-walk-away attitude in that regard? An EA Games sports game that amounts to little more than a yearly database update with some incremental improvements on the engine like FIFA sells for 60$. Where again, is the outcry over the price? WITP/WITE/WITW is available for 20$ more. Considering how much time you can spend on these games compared to a FPS like Call of Duty, is this price so unreasonable?
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by Grotius »

ORIGINAL: Fintilgin

I think this is a self-fulfilling prophecy to some extent. If you price the game so vastly outside what the rest of the market does you're pretty much guaranteeing that no one outside the niche will try it and the niche will never grow.

...

Interface and complexity wise, I DO think War in the Pacific is a hard sell, but both WitE and WitW seem much more approachable and I think they'd do a lot better then you might think on Steam at (roughly) half the price you sell them for here.

Matrix has been selling a few of its games on Steam, games like Distant Worlds. Therefore Matrix has data about how well its games sell on Steam vs how well they sell here. And it has data on the cut Valve takes for listing on Steam. (30% or so, yes?) At your proposed price point, Matrix would have to sell 3 times or more as many games to make up the lost revenue from the price cut and the middleman. Maybe they've seen a 4x spike in sales for other games listed on Steam, maybe not.

Also, remember, you can always cut the price; you can't very well increase it. Games are like cars: they depreciate the moment they leave the shop floor. It doesn't surprise me at all that complex wargames are priced high.
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tevans6220
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by tevans6220 »

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

I think some people simply want something for nothing.

Game cost me 80 bucks for a download. To complain about it costing 80 bucks though, is just what it is, complaining and being cheap.

I see people spend oodles of bucks on all sorts of things all the time, and really, they just want more more more and more.

If the game was priced at 70 bucks they would complain, and if it was 60 bucks they would complain.

People have gotten too used to crap being shoved on the market on places like Steam and then insisting that the crap and the quality are equal.

Nope, the garbage you bought on Steam for 75% off, was likely only worth that much on it's launch day too.

There was a massive sum of work required to produce this game. If it was my game, I'd be selling it for 80 bucks too.

The same happens in all forms of products though. You can buy junk at Walmart, or you can buy expensive items custom made. The people making the custom made will just look at you odd when you ask how they can justify the price. Cheap junk cars, are not the same as fancy exotic sports cars.

I sometimes wonder how it is though, that some can ask some questions. Gary has been making these games for quite a few years now. His games are a cut above the rest.

It's not that I'm too cheap or want something for nothing. I just don't want to pay for the same thing twice. If I already have a game on the same subject then this game needs to bring something more to the table especially for the price they're asking. I'm also looking somewhat towards the future. The $100 spent on this game seems like it would be a good investment until I ask myself if I'll be able to play it in 10 or 15 years. My point is I could buy $100 worth of books with the same money and as long as I keep them in good shape, I could take one off the shelf in 20 years and read it again. Software, movies and music cd's don't last that long. $80 to $100 is a pretty steep price for something that's not going to last that long.

I'm not so sure about the niche market argument being valid either. Seems like it's only a niche market when Matrix wants to charge a high price. Like I said, it's not just me being cheap. I bought MWiF and the books, CMANO and a lot more including WiTP AE and WiTE. I can literally look at the Matrix Holiday sale and not be able to take advantage of it because I already have it all. I'm not being cheap or wanting something for nothing. I want value for my dollar. The other thing I want if I buy this is a finished program sometime in my lifetime. I love Matrix games but my experience with the titles that I own are that they are works in progress. Some titles that I bought seven years ago still don't work right and are still being worked on. I'm getting too old to wait around on patches or reworks.

One other thing I'd love for somebody to explain. Before digital downloads people were paying the equivalent of what is now being charged for digital downloads. Somewhere between $40 and $80. Everything going digital was supposed to be cheaper. Cheaper for who though? Used to be you got a decent manual with a game too. Now you have to pay extra for what you used to get as part of the whole physical package. And you can only get that physical package if you're willing to pay more. If you think about it, we've all been duped. That's not a personal attack against Matrix. Just an observation of the software industry in general.
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