Air combat rework

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Dragunov
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Air combat rework

Post by Dragunov »

I think the air combat, or parts of it, urgently needs some rework. I mostly play 1980s scenarios either on Soviet or US side.

Following situations:

1.

12 Backfires approach a CVBG and 2 Tomcats intercepts them. The Tomcats launch 8 AIM-54C from a range of about 70 NM. Not a single Backfire is killed. Then the Tomcats attack with 4 Sparrows and after that with 4 Sidewinders. At the end 3 of 12 Backfires are down.

2.

One Su-27 moves back to airport (480 kts) and 2 Tomcats try to shoot it down directly from behind. The range is 30 NM. Not one of the 8 launched AIM-54C hit the target. (How long does the rocket motor of an AIM-54C burns?)


Is a 20% success chance for chaffs realistic (some chaffs even got a success chance of 30%)? Is the success chance of defensive jammers realistic?

I slowly get the impression as if air combat in Command is too much based on luck. My only other reference for air combat are flight simulators like Falcon 4 but maybe these simulators are no realistic.
ComDev
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RE: Air combat rework

Post by ComDev »

Hi Dragunov, thank you for your feedback [8D]

It would be very helpful if you could post up the log from these engagements, and also a savegame of each. That will allow us to dissect & analyze what happened and why.

Thanks!
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Rebel Yell
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RE: Air combat rework

Post by Rebel Yell »

1. The Phoenix was a very expensive missile that never lived up to the hype. Against a non-maneuvering target like a bomber, you should have gotten a kill or two. Run that several times. If you never get any kills, there's a problem. When the Turkey's close in to Sparrow/Sidewinder range, they should do quite well. You may have just been unlucky again.

2. The Phoenix is next to worthless against fighters. Run that one a bunch of times. A kill will be rare.
Dobey455
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RE: Air combat rework

Post by Dobey455 »

The Phoenix was almost never used in combat (by the US) and on the few occasions it was fired, it missed.

There are several accounts of the missile in use by the Iranians in the Iran - Iraq war that claim much success, but I suspect that Iranian claims are well and truly on the "creative" side of the spectrum.

Ultimately we don't have any reliable source to suggest the Phoenix was the sort of threat it is often made out to be - at least in terms of ability to kill fighters.
AlmightyTallest
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RE: Air combat rework

Post by AlmightyTallest »

A few things to consider.

1. How is the AI set for both sides of your scenario. Do you have the Tomcats set at novice and the Russian side set up as Expert? This allows the endgame calculations to give the expert rated aircraft a larger margin to evade missiles.

2. Are you supporting your Phoenix missiles? Are the F-14's set up with their radar's on, and when the missiles are fired, are you keeping the enemy aircraft within the cone of the F-14's radar? I've seen better results doing it this way because I think the simulation takes into account the computed intercept point for the missiles before they go active themselves.

3. Before firing the Phoenix, try setting your altitude and speed as fast as possible to give extra energy to the missiles. After they fire, slow down to avoid closing with them too quickly.

Regarding the AIM-54A in Iran, you have to consider that these Tomcats were going after export Soviet and French aircraft that were from the 70's to early 80's time period, and that in many cases, it seems the enemy aircraft didn't have sufficient coverage or sensitive enough Radar warning receivers to warn the pilots of an AIM-54A attack other than the detection of an export AN/AWG-9.

As you get to later generations of aircraft, or the same aircraft from the 90's and later, they become more capable of detecting, and evading the threat.

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Feltan
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RE: Air combat rework

Post by Feltan »

The OP's results seem off. I would think that he would have gotten better results.

The Phoenix did in fact shoot down Iraqi fighters. This was investigated (to the extent possible) by intelligence and vetted. I agree, the Iranian claims are bit much (like downing three MIG-23's in formation with a single Phoenix), but it is also clear that the Phoenix was capable of taking out older generation MIGs; it wasn't an unguided cannon ball.

However, it was meant for bombers attacking a CVBG back in the day, and the OP's results are dismal and not like anything I've seen before.

There must be other variables in play.

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Feltan
Dimitris
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RE: Air combat rework

Post by Dimitris »

Savefile & message log...
mikmykWS
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RE: Air combat rework

Post by mikmykWS »

Okay guys did some validation testing tonight.

Its definitely not all misses but its pretty low. I tested with A and C variant of Phoenix. A variant has 34% chance and C 36% chance if not zapped or spoofed against a modern backfire which does have a nice defensive EW suite btw.

We'll talk this one out and see what makes sense.

In the future it would save us time if you'd post files or parts of your logs.Thanks for reporting though!

Mike



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RE: Air combat rework

Post by mikmykWS »

I hate the Habs[:)]


Just saying
Dimitris
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RE: Air combat rework

Post by Dimitris »

Kudos to Mike for doing what the OP should have.

Alright, let's look at some engagements and see if we can spot unrealistic steps.

--------------------

AIM-54A against "Regular" Libyan Su-22M-3K at less than half range:
21.02.1983 09:07:10 - : Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54A Phoenix #330). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 33 - FAILURE

21.02.1983 09:07:10 - : Defensive jammer (SPS-141MVG-E Gvozdika; Tech: Early 1970s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54A Phoenix #330). Final probability: 15%. Die Roll: 47 - FAILURE

21.02.1983 09:07:10 - : Weapon: AIM-54A Phoenix #330 is attacking Su-22M-3K Fitter J with a base PH of 80%. Su-22M-3K Fitter J is maneuvering with agility: 2 (Nominal: 2,5 - Proficiency: Regular)(-20%). Final PH: 60%. Die Roll: 71 - MISS

Overall Pk = 70% (probability chaff won't work) * 85% (probability jammer will be ineffective) * 60% (probability manouvering will be ineffective) = 35%

---------------

AIM-54C at less-than-half range against "Regular" Libyan Su-22M-3K:
21.02.1983 09:06:53 - : Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #317). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 44 - FAILURE

21.02.1983 09:06:53 - : Defensive jammer (SPS-141MVG-E Gvozdika; Tech: Early 1970s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #317). Final probability: 15%. Die Roll: 76 - FAILURE

21.02.1983 09:06:53 - : Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #317 is attacking Su-22M-3K Fitter J with a base PH of 85%. Su-22M-3K Fitter J is maneuvering with agility: 2 (Nominal: 2,5 - Proficiency: Regular)(-20%). Final PH: 65%. Die Roll: 67 - MISS

Overall Pk = 70% (probability chaff won't work) * 85% (probability jammer will be ineffective) * 65% (probability manouvering will be ineffective) = 38%

------------------------

AIM-54A against "Regular" Soviet Su-27S, at just over half range:
21.02.1983 09:07:22 - : Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54A Phoenix #332). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 87 - FAILURE

21.02.1983 09:07:22 - : Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54A Phoenix #332). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 37 - FAILURE

21.02.1983 09:07:22 - : Weapon: AIM-54A Phoenix #332 is attacking Su-27S Flanker B with a base PH of 80%. PH adjusted for distance: 75%. Su-27S Flanker B is maneuvering with agility: 3,6 (Nominal: 4,5 - Proficiency: Regular)(-36%). Final PH: 39%. Die Roll: 41 - MISS

Overall Pk = 70% * 75% * 39% = 20%

------------------------

AIM-54C against "Regular" Soviet Su-27S, at just over half range:
21.02.1983 09:07:04 - : Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #323). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 89 - FAILURE

21.02.1983 09:07:04 - : Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #323). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 89 - FAILURE

21.02.1983 09:07:04 - : Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #323 is attacking Su-27S Flanker B with a base PH of 85%. PH adjusted for distance: 84%. Su-27S Flanker B is maneuvering with agility: 3,6 (Nominal: 4,5 - Proficiency: Regular)(-36%). Final PH: 48%. Die Roll: 4 - HIT

Overall Pk = 70% * 75% * 52% = 27%

-----------------------------

AIM-54C against "Regular" Soviet Tu-22M-3, at slightly over half range:
21.02.1983 09:07:06 - : Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [8x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #316). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 77 - FAILURE

21.02.1983 09:07:06 - : Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [8x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #316). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 80 - FAILURE

21.02.1983 09:07:06 - : Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #316). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 34 - FAILURE

21.02.1983 09:07:06 - : Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #316 is attacking Tu-22M-3 Backfire C with a base PH of 85%. PH adjusted for distance: 77%. Tu-22M-3 Backfire C is maneuvering with agility: 1,6 (Nominal: 2 - Proficiency: Regular)(-16%). Final PH: 61%. Die Roll: 55 - HIT

Overall Pk = 70% * 70% * 75% * 55% = 20%
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Feltan
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RE: Air combat rework

Post by Feltan »

I have absolutely no quantitative data to base this opinion on, but those Pk's seem a bit low at first blush.
 
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thewood1
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RE: Air combat rework

Post by thewood1 »

Is that data saying that it is easier to kill an Su-27 than a Tu-22. Just want to make sure I am reading that right. Is it because of the Tu-22's ECM capabilities?
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RE: Air combat rework

Post by Dimitris »

ORIGINAL: thewood1
Is that data saying that it is easier to kill an Su-27 than a Tu-22. Just want to make sure I am reading that right. Is it because of the Tu-22's ECM capabilities?

I assume you refer to the last two examples.

Notice two things:

1) The Pk-degradation-due-to-distance is greater in the case of the Tu-22M (ie. the shot was taken at greater distance, hence the missile arrives with less energy and thus maneuverability. This was the impetus behind AIM-120D and Meteor, BTW). If the distance was the same then the Pk vs. the Tu-22M would be higher.

2) The Tu-22M gets two chaff opportunities (ie. a 0.7 * 0.7 modifier) because of its two chaff launchers. We are discussing this internally to decide if chaff salvoes should have a higher probability of seduction than single launches and if yes by how much.

Thanks.
AlmightyTallest
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RE: Air combat rework

Post by AlmightyTallest »

The Pk is about the same for most things it seems.

Here's my scecario with late F-14D's using AIM-54C's against 1984 French Mirage F1CR's, and a 1992 era Foxbat B. The U.S. Side is set to maximum proficiency, Russian side set to normal. Getting similar results using other various aircraft, from later time periods, you can use the editor to swap out the Mirage's etc. with whatever you want to go up against and see the end game results.

In the attached scenario, you can just tell the F-14's to attack the formation heading toward them from the north, and watch the results, I got the following.
8:35:00 PM - All weapon seekers were neutralized - weapon will not impact
8:35:00 PM - Defensive jammer (SPS-151/152; Tech: Late 1970s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #36). Final probability: 20%. Die Roll: 4 - SUCCESS

8:35:04 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #38 is attacking MiG-25RBT Foxbat B with a base PH of 85%. PH adjusted for distance: 85%. MiG-25RBT Foxbat B is maneuvering with agility: 1.6 (Nominal: 2 - Proficiency: Regular)(-16%). Final PH: 69%. Die Roll: 45 - HIT

8:35:19 PM - Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #39). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 13 - SUCCESS

8:36:20 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #48 is attacking Mirage F.1CR with a base PH of 85%. Mirage F.1CR is maneuvering with agility: 3.2 (Nominal: 4 - Proficiency: Regular)(-32%). Final PH: 53%. Die Roll: 49 - HIT

8:36:20 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #46 is attacking Mirage F.1CR with a base PH of 85%. Mirage F.1CR is maneuvering with agility: 3.2 (Nominal: 4 - Proficiency: Regular)(-32%). Final PH: 53%. Die Roll: 70 - MISS

8:36:20 PM - Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #46). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 32 - FAILURE

8:36:19 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #42 is attacking Mirage F.1CR with a base PH of 85%. Mirage F.1CR is maneuvering with agility: 3.2 (Nominal: 4 - Proficiency: Regular)(-32%). Final PH: 53%. Die Roll: 95 - MISS

8:36:19 PM - Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #42). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 100 - FAILURE

8:36:20 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #43 is attacking Mirage F.1CR with a base PH of 85%. Mirage F.1CR is maneuvering with agility: 3.2 (Nominal: 4 - Proficiency: Regular)(-32%). Final PH: 53%. Die Roll: 33 - HIT

8:36:20 PM - Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #43). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 90 - FAILURE

8:36:20 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #44 is attacking Mirage F.1CR with a base PH of 85%. Mirage F.1CR is maneuvering with agility: 3.2 (Nominal: 4 - Proficiency: Regular)(-32%). Final PH: 53%. Die Roll: 89 - MISS

8:36:20 PM - Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #45). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 9 -


8:36:21 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #56 is attacking Mirage F.1CR with a base PH of 85%. Mirage F.1CR is maneuvering with agility: 3.2 (Nominal: 4 - Proficiency: Regular)(-32%). Final PH: 53%. Die Roll: 76 - MISS

8:36:21 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #55 is attacking Mirage F.1CR with a base PH of 85%. Mirage F.1CR is maneuvering with agility: 3.2 (Nominal: 4 - Proficiency: Regular)(-32%). Final PH: 53%. Die Roll: 68 - MISS

8:36:21 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #54 is attacking Mirage F.1CR with a base PH of 85%. Mirage F.1CR is maneuvering with agility: 3.2 (Nominal: 4 - Proficiency: Regular)(-32%). Final PH: 53%. Die Roll: 90 - MISS

8:36:21 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #53 is attacking Mirage F.1CR with a base PH of 85%. Mirage F.1CR is maneuvering with agility: 3.2 (Nominal: 4 - Proficiency: Regular)(-32%). Final PH: 53%. Die Roll: 7 - HIT

8:36:21 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #52 is attacking Mirage F.1CR with a base PH of 85%. Mirage F.1CR is maneuvering with agility: 3.2 (Nominal: 4 - Proficiency: Regular)(-32%). Final PH: 53%. Die Roll: 63 - MISS

8:36:21 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #51 is attacking Mirage F.1CR with a base PH of 85%. Mirage F.1CR is maneuvering with agility: 3.2 (Nominal: 4 - Proficiency: Regular)(-32%). Final PH: 53%. Die Roll: 45 - HIT

8:36:21 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #50 is attacking Mirage F.1CR with a base PH of 85%. Mirage F.1CR is maneuvering with agility: 3.2 (Nominal: 4 - Proficiency: Regular)(-32%). Final PH: 53%. Die Roll: 3 - HIT

8:36:21 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #49 is attacking Mirage F.1CR with a base PH of 85%. Mirage F.1CR is maneuvering with agility: 3.2 (Nominal: 4 - Proficiency: Regular)(-32%). Final PH: 53%. Die Roll: 83 - MISS

8:36:21 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #47 is attacking Mirage F.1CR with a base PH of 85%. Mirage F.1CR is maneuvering with agility: 3.2 (Nominal: 4 - Proficiency: Regular)(-32%). Final PH: 53%. Die Roll: 93 - MISS

8:36:21 PM - Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #47). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 91 - FAILURE

Should the AIM-54C from 1985 be considered a late 70's tech seeker? I can see the AIM-54A being such.

My simple test scenario is attached.
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ComDev
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RE: Air combat rework

Post by ComDev »

Okay think maybe we should make some adjustments.

1. Chaff effectiveness is too high
2. DECM effectiveness is probably also too high
3. Seeker gen needs to be reviewed (should probably check all of them)

I'll send some suggestions to Dimitris. Please have patience with us, we're not in sprint mode so making changes take longer than what they used to.

Thanks for your feedback guys [8D]
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Dimitris
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RE: Air combat rework

Post by Dimitris »

ORIGINAL: AlmightyTallest
The Pk is about the same for most things it seems.
The log you posted clearly shows that this isn't the case.
Should the AIM-54C from 1985 be considered a late 70's tech seeker? I can see the AIM-54A being such.
That's a good question. We'll discuss this internally.
AlmightyTallest
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RE: Air combat rework

Post by AlmightyTallest »

No problem guys, glad to help.

My experience with using other aircraft appeared to be the same Pk, something around 50% but the dice rolls and other factors being considered by the engine and randomness make it interesting at times.

Same scenario, but against Su-35S's

8:35:19 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #69 is attacking Su-35S Flanker with a base PH of 85%. PH adjusted for distance: 81%. Su-35S Flanker is maneuvering with agility: 3.6 (Nominal: 4.5 - Proficiency: Regular)(-36%). Final PH: 45%. Die Roll: 12 - HIT

8:35:19 PM - Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #69). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 79 - FAILURE

8:35:19 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #68 is attacking Su-35S Flanker with a base PH of 85%. PH adjusted for distance: 81%. Su-35S Flanker is maneuvering with agility: 3.6 (Nominal: 4.5 - Proficiency: Regular)(-36%). Final PH: 45%. Die Roll: 15 - HIT

8:35:19 PM - Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #68). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 84 - FAILURE

8:35:19 PM - Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #68). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 82 - FAILURE

8:35:19 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #67 is attacking Su-35S Flanker with a base PH of 85%. PH adjusted for distance: 81%. Su-35S Flanker is maneuvering with agility: 3.6 (Nominal: 4.5 - Proficiency: Regular)(-36%). Final PH: 45%. Die Roll: 65 - MISS

8:35:19 PM - Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #67). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 75 - FAILURE

8:35:19 PM - All weapon seekers were neutralized - weapon will not impact

8:35:19 PM - Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #66). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 12 - SUCCESS

8:35:19 PM - Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #66). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 69 - FAILURE

8:35:18 PM - All weapon seekers were neutralized - weapon will not impact

8:35:18 PM - Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active

Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #61). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 2 - SUCCESS
8:35:18 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #60 is attacking Su-35S Flanker with a base PH of 85%. PH adjusted for distance: 82%. Su-35S Flanker is maneuvering with agility: 3.6 (Nominal: 4.5 - Proficiency: Regular)(-36%). Final PH: 46%. Die Roll: 19 - HIT

8:35:18 PM - Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #60). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 35 - FAILURE

8:35:18 PM - Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #60). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 71 - FAILURE

8:35:18 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #59 is attacking Su-35S Flanker with a base PH of 85%. PH adjusted for distance: 82%. Su-35S Flanker is maneuvering with agility: 3.6 (Nominal: 4.5 - Proficiency: Regular)(-36%). Final PH: 46%. Die Roll: 27 - HIT

8:35:18 PM - Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #59). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 95 - FAILURE

8:35:18 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #58 is attacking Su-35S Flanker with a base PH of 85%. PH adjusted for distance: 82%. Su-35S Flanker is maneuvering with agility: 3.6 (Nominal: 4.5 - Proficiency: Regular)(-36%). Final PH: 46%. Die Roll: 9 - HIT

8:35:18 PM - Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #58). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 51 - FAILURE

8:35:18 PM - Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #58). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 58 - FAILURE

8:35:18 PM - All weapon seekers were neutralized - weapon will not impact

8:35:18 PM - Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #65). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 1 - SUCCESS

8:35:18 PM - All weapon seekers were neutralized - weapon will not impact

8:35:18 PM - Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #62). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 25 - SUCCESS

8:35:18 PM - All weapon seekers were neutralized - weapon will not impact

8:35:18 PM - Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #57). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 20 - SUCCESS
8:35:18 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #56 is attacking Su-35S Flanker with a base PH of 85%. PH adjusted for distance: 82%.

Su-35S Flanker is maneuvering with agility: 3.6 (Nominal: 4.5 - Proficiency: Regular)(-36%). Final PH: 46%. Die Roll: 74 - MISS

8:35:18 PM - Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #56). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 42 - FAILURE

8:35:18 PM - Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #56). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 83 - FAILURE
8:35:18 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #55 is attacking Su-35S Flanker with a base PH of 85%. PH adjusted for distance: 82%. Su-35S Flanker is maneuvering with agility: 3.6 (Nominal: 4.5 - Proficiency: Regular)(-36%). Final PH: 46%. Die Roll: 21 - HIT

8:35:18 PM - Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active

Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #55). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 45 - FAILURE
8:35:18 PM - All weapon seekers were neutralized - weapon will not impact
8:35:18 PM - Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active

Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #54). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 21 - SUCCESS
8:35:18 PM - Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar

Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #54). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 33 - FAILURE
8:35:18 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #64 is attacking Su-35S Flanker with a base PH of 85%. PH adjusted for distance: 82%.

Su-35S Flanker is maneuvering with agility: 3.6 (Nominal: 4.5 - Proficiency: Regular)(-36%). Final PH: 46%. Die Roll: 63 - MISS

8:35:18 PM - Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #64). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 59 - FAILURE

8:35:18 PM - Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #64). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 84 - FAILURE

8:35:18 PM - Weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #63 is attacking Su-35S Flanker with a base PH of 85%. PH adjusted for distance: 82%. Su-35S Flanker is maneuvering with agility: 3.6 (Nominal: 4.5 - Proficiency: Regular)(-36%). Final PH: 46%. Die Roll: 99 - MISS

8:35:18 PM - Defensive jammer (SPS-171/172 Sorbtsiya [L-005]; Tech: Early 1980s) is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Late 1970s)(Of: AIM-54C Phoenix #63). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 80 - FAILURE
8:35:18 PM - Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]; Tech: NotApplicable) is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 1970s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-54C Phoenix #63). Final probability: 30%. Die Roll: 58 - FAILURE
Coiler12
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:11 pm
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RE: Air combat rework

Post by Coiler12 »

I'm honestly not really seeing what the problem is with the combat engine, since missiles have had lower-than-advertised pK in almost every engagement they were fired in.
mikmykWS
Posts: 7185
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:34 pm

RE: Air combat rework

Post by mikmykWS »

No its validation stuff which is good because better values and models shake out of it.

Its good that people report issues but sometimes the way they report isn't so hot

"It Broke" "Game Sucks"

Our hope is that they realize we do respond and will make changes if needed.

Mike
ryszardsh
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:39 am

RE: Air combat rework

Post by ryszardsh »

Related note:

I do not have the nice data set prints as above, but I notice much the same sort of issue. E.G., play the Battle of the First Salvo scenario - and just watch the Syria/Israel air combat. Historically, in that time frame, the Israeli side routinely wipes up the Syrian Air Force - but in the simulation the Israelis lose several Eagles every time I run the scenario. Just struck me the last time I ran it that the on screen results should at least be near the ball park of real results.

RAS
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